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Also for admins. I had to send back an iMac Pro because we installed it from a backup. This skipped the T2 setup during install, and left it in a completely bro

by j-pb 7y ago

Also for admins. I had to send back an iMac Pro because we installed it from a backup. This skipped the T2 setup during install, and left it in a completely broken/uninitialized state that only apple could fix (presumably by throwing the entire mac away). Our company has a strict "NO T2" policy, and after we can't get T2 less macs anymore, we're gonna switch to windows after 30 years of being a mac shop.

Crosseye_Jack 7y ago
I know its no help to you now as you have already sent it back but if the T2 on the iMac Pro was simply uninitialized or corrupted you can put it in to DFU mode and use another mac and Apple Configurator 2 to restore the T2's firmware. https://help.apple.com/configurator/mac/2.7.1/#/apdebea5be51 https://help.apple.com/configurator/mac/2.7.1/#/apdebea5be51
- j-pb 7y ago
  I had a lengthy talk with apple support about this. They've advised against that, since the specific version of the T2 that specific iMac Pro shipped with, had a failure case where resetting the firmware would also brick it. At least that's what I've been told, could be that apple rather pays the shipping costs, than the support hours if something goes wrong ofc.
  - Crosseye_Jack 7y ago
    But you already had a brick so not a lot to lose esp if you are expecting Apple just tossing the mainboard when it’s returned anyway ;-) It’s a known issue that a MacOS restore can upset the T2. But yeah, if you can live without the iMac while Apple do their thing there is a valid argument to say “why waste a tech’s time researching and attempting a fix when Apple will cover the cost of sorting it.”
    - j-pb 6y ago
      Yeah, it's on their clock if they have to fix it. Also as a company you have a much narrower margin of time to return, than as a private person. And we didn't want to be stuck with a mac that kinda sorta works, but might break at any time. We solved the problem by returning the iMac Pro entirely, and instead getting a prev-gen iMac with maxed out specs. Got us into a similar capability range, no pesky T2, and saved like 3k.
jki275 7y ago
>Our company has a strict "NO T2" policy, Can I ask why? I don't see the downside.
- j-pb 7y ago
  With a T2 chip you can no longer use Disk Cloning as a viable means to make backups, because there are ID's stored in the new APFS that have to match the ID of the T2 chip. It sometimes somewhat works, but it's an invitation to get burned. I've talked with various seniority levels on apples tech support team and they all recommended against it, because they themselves know that it can bring the system into undefined states. So how to do backups then? Apple recommends the Os X Migration Assistant. But that tool is so broken that it sometimes takes multiple migrations to transfer all the data, and even then you won't get things like financial applications which dig themselves deep into system files. Again I've talked to many people at Apple tech support, and they've all reached the conclusion that Migration Assistant can't be trusted 100%. Having a computer that we can't upgrade, or replace in a failure scenario is a no-go.
  - jki275 6y ago
    I guess my first comment would be that cloning disks isn't a viable backup strategy. It hasn't been for a long time, especially since you don't have the ability to swap internal disks anyway. Apple provides time machine, which should give you a good backup capability. Also, I'm not convinced the T2 chip is the problem here. I think an incorrect corporate backup workflow and deployment strategy is the problem.
    - j-pb 6y ago
      Now you need to explain, how is that not a viable backup strategy? And with the utmost respect, if you seriously recommend time machine, for anything besides a quick "oops didn't mean to delete that", then you can't have used/deployed it in anger. With a 40Gbit Thunderbolt SSD you can theoretically restore an internal PCIE Drive in 1.5 Minutes. No internal drive access needed, if it boots into target disk mode you're good. Compare that with days for the Time Machine case, because it has to move all the tiny little files, and recreate a file system tree. And even then you're not guaranteed to be good, because a restore will use the Os X migration Assistant too, which, as mentioned before, has a tendency to just. not. work. TM is an unreliable technological nightmare. It could have worked if apple had bought ZFS, but since that fell through due to licensing, they had to rely on a hot mess of folder HARD-Links to try to build some kind of snapshotting file system. Even with APFS you're not 100% good, because APFS is an extremely young file system with plenty of bugs, remember that Disk eating APFS Os X Upgrade. Combine that with Programs that manage taxes and are written BASIC with no idea on how to behave on a modern operating system, yeah no thanks. I'd rather have that 1.5 minute repair time instead of waiting days for multiple iterations of the Migration Assistant, only then having to reinstall all the software that got broken in the process. What does "incorrect corporate backup workflow and deployment strategy" even mean. We're two guys completely in charge of IT. I wish we had Linux or Windows, at least there is some form of "Deployments". With Macs, it's all manual labour, because any thing remotely resembling automation, gets discontinued or API-broken in the next release. The best you can do on a Mac in terms of reproducible deployment is set it up once, and copy the entire disk wherever you go.

by j-pb 7y ago

Crosseye_Jack 7y ago

I know its no help to you now as you have already sent it back but if the T2 on the iMac Pro was simply uninitialized or corrupted you can put it in to DFU mode and use another mac and Apple Configurator 2 to restore the T2's firmware. https://help.apple.com/configurator/mac/2.7.1/#/apdebea5be51 https://help.apple.com/configurator/mac/2.7.1/#/apdebea5be51

j-pb 7y ago
I had a lengthy talk with apple support about this. They've advised against that, since the specific version of the T2 that specific iMac Pro shipped with, had a failure case where resetting the firmware would also brick it. At least that's what I've been told, could be that apple rather pays the shipping costs, than the support hours if something goes wrong ofc.
- Crosseye_Jack 7y ago
  But you already had a brick so not a lot to lose esp if you are expecting Apple just tossing the mainboard when it’s returned anyway ;-) It’s a known issue that a MacOS restore can upset the T2. But yeah, if you can live without the iMac while Apple do their thing there is a valid argument to say “why waste a tech’s time researching and attempting a fix when Apple will cover the cost of sorting it.”
  - j-pb 6y ago
    Yeah, it's on their clock if they have to fix it. Also as a company you have a much narrower margin of time to return, than as a private person. And we didn't want to be stuck with a mac that kinda sorta works, but might break at any time. We solved the problem by returning the iMac Pro entirely, and instead getting a prev-gen iMac with maxed out specs. Got us into a similar capability range, no pesky T2, and saved like 3k.

jki275 7y ago

>Our company has a strict "NO T2" policy, Can I ask why? I don't see the downside.

j-pb 7y ago
With a T2 chip you can no longer use Disk Cloning as a viable means to make backups, because there are ID's stored in the new APFS that have to match the ID of the T2 chip. It sometimes somewhat works, but it's an invitation to get burned. I've talked with various seniority levels on apples tech support team and they all recommended against it, because they themselves know that it can bring the system into undefined states. So how to do backups then? Apple recommends the Os X Migration Assistant. But that tool is so broken that it sometimes takes multiple migrations to transfer all the data, and even then you won't get things like financial applications which dig themselves deep into system files. Again I've talked to many people at Apple tech support, and they've all reached the conclusion that Migration Assistant can't be trusted 100%. Having a computer that we can't upgrade, or replace in a failure scenario is a no-go.
- jki275 6y ago
  I guess my first comment would be that cloning disks isn't a viable backup strategy. It hasn't been for a long time, especially since you don't have the ability to swap internal disks anyway. Apple provides time machine, which should give you a good backup capability. Also, I'm not convinced the T2 chip is the problem here. I think an incorrect corporate backup workflow and deployment strategy is the problem.
  - j-pb 6y ago
    Now you need to explain, how is that not a viable backup strategy? And with the utmost respect, if you seriously recommend time machine, for anything besides a quick "oops didn't mean to delete that", then you can't have used/deployed it in anger. With a 40Gbit Thunderbolt SSD you can theoretically restore an internal PCIE Drive in 1.5 Minutes. No internal drive access needed, if it boots into target disk mode you're good. Compare that with days for the Time Machine case, because it has to move all the tiny little files, and recreate a file system tree. And even then you're not guaranteed to be good, because a restore will use the Os X migration Assistant too, which, as mentioned before, has a tendency to just. not. work. TM is an unreliable technological nightmare. It could have worked if apple had bought ZFS, but since that fell through due to licensing, they had to rely on a hot mess of folder HARD-Links to try to build some kind of snapshotting file system. Even with APFS you're not 100% good, because APFS is an extremely young file system with plenty of bugs, remember that Disk eating APFS Os X Upgrade. Combine that with Programs that manage taxes and are written BASIC with no idea on how to behave on a modern operating system, yeah no thanks. I'd rather have that 1.5 minute repair time instead of waiting days for multiple iterations of the Migration Assistant, only then having to reinstall all the software that got broken in the process. What does "incorrect corporate backup workflow and deployment strategy" even mean. We're two guys completely in charge of IT. I wish we had Linux or Windows, at least there is some form of "Deployments". With Macs, it's all manual labour, because any thing remotely resembling automation, gets discontinued or API-broken in the next release. The best you can do on a Mac in terms of reproducible deployment is set it up once, and copy the entire disk wherever you go.