7 ms·

I've used iOS for over a decade without needing to install apps outside of the app store. I would guess that the vast majority of iOS users share that experienc

I've used iOS for over a decade without needing to install apps outside of the app store. I would guess that the vast majority of iOS users share that experience. I understand you might be frustrated by those limitations, but to say "hold off on this until it's fixed" seems pretty reasonable. It's pretty ironic to hear a complaint about the walled garden, when the only apparent way to solve this "0day" is probably going to be to put up another wall.

soulofmischief 7y ago
"hold off on this until it's fixed" is definitely reasonable. However, that's not what OP said. OP said, "Dont install apps outside the app store." That reminds me of the kind of apologetic advice I get from the Microsoft community when dealing with Windows' strange behavior and anti-user choices. > It's pretty ironic to hear a complaint about the walled garden, when the only apparent way to solve this "0day" is probably going to be to put up another wall. You're conflating two separate issues. Microsoft has a certification program for Windows programs, Linux has extremely nuanced permissions, SELinux, etc. This has been solved elsewhere but the walled garden of iOS is deliberately ill-designed and is not a robust solution.
- oarsinsync 7y ago
  As a technical user, I share in your frustrations. iOS may be more secure out of the box, but it's an all-or-nothing solution. Either you take what they give you and put your faith in the almighty Apple, or you break out and have no protection at all. Unlike other platforms, where there is a range of options to us, where if we work hard enough, we can make our platform more secure, while still maintaining our freedom to do as we please, because we know what we're doing. That said, I remain grateful that there's at least one mass consumer facing platform that is secure by default and user friendly. For the vast majority of the world, this is more valuable than the ability to tinker. For me personally, it ends up being a toss up. I lament my restrictions, but I'm grateful for the significantly reduced amount of technical support I'm required to do now compared to the (good|bad|^$) old days when a PC / laptop was everyone's primary computing device.
- hugofloss 7y ago
  For me the walled garden of iOS attracts me to the platform. Its apps are relatively safe, stable and curated. Sure, these restrictions might suck for you as a power user. For me, someone who makes phone calls, chats with family, takes pictures and reads the news this is just perfect. I don't need to think a lot about security because the platform thinks about it for me. For you it feels like prison, for me it feels like one thing less to worry about. For you it's ill-designed, for me it's designed for me the consumer. I'm curious what your definition of robust is.
  - ken 7y ago
    Not the person you were responding to, but: implements security with fine-grained and system-enforced permissions, not human approval for apps. One of these methods has a much better track record than the other.
  - soulofmischief 7y ago
    It sucks for me as a power user because I prefer Apple's corporate ethos, but their increasingly quirky UI and no recourse for things like alternative launchers make it an automatic no-go because I can't stand Apple's interfaces. It seems silly to most people but I get physical anxiety from interfaces which don't behave consistently or make me feel claustrophobic, and I've grown tired of relearning iOS every few years. To the point where I'm using hole-ridden Android devices with bags of telemetry by default, but with a consistent launcher I've used for many years and know how to navigate. No hidden UI tricks. If Apple would allow people like me to control the devices we buy, I would finally have a home in the mobile market.
    - dkonofalski 7y ago
      >but I get physical anxiety from interfaces which don't behave consistently or make me feel claustrophobic I feel terribly for you. I can't imagine being in my own way so much that Apple's UI would give me physical anxiety.
      - soulofmischief 7y ago
- Jonnax 7y ago
  There's such a simple solution: don't buy an iPhone. They're not hiding anything from you about their walled garden.
  - oarsinsync 7y ago
    > There's such a simple solution: don't buy an iPhone. Is there a platform that gives me the freedom to run what I want, provides a decent security model, doesn't spy on everything I do, and if you squint just right, 'just works'? If not, there is no simple solution, there's just different tradeoffs in a huge pile of poop.
    - soulofmischief 7y ago
      Yeah, I don't understand why this position needs defending. Both Google and Apple's app stores have major problems, and they could learn a little from each other.
tasogare 7y ago
No, they make it hard on purpose even for hobbyist developers with cumbersome signing process and 7 days limit, as a way to bank on the 99$/year registration.
- fredsted 7y ago
  Making it harder also heightens the bar so low-quality or malicious apps don't get in.
- Aaargh20318 7y ago
  $99/year is peanuts, that's less than 1 hour of developer time. All it does is prevent spammers from creating a shitload of free accounts.
  - outadoc 7y ago
    > $99/year is peanuts, that's less than 1 hour of developer time lol, I wish.
    - kdtsh 7y ago
      Well ... it might not be what a developer is paid, but it's the value a developer creates for a business (experience and training withstanding of course), if you catch my drift.
    - Aaargh20318 7y ago
      There's a difference between your salary, what you cost to the company, and how much they charge the customer for your time.
  - Monory 7y ago
    You're not thinking of programmers from developing countries. It can be several days wage there.
  - iso1631 7y ago
    99 cents a year would stop spammers creating a ton of accounts too
greggman3 7y ago
You don't know what apps you're missing if you can't see what apps would exist without the restrictions. That's like saying "I've rented from Blockbuster Video from over a decade without needing to view videos Blockbuster doesn't carry"
- oarsinsync 7y ago
  Completely agree. It's also the view that people held regarding blackerries pre-iphone. A hardware keyboard was essential because the alternative was not an option. As someone who used to jailbreak, I've definitely found tools in the past in the jailbreak store that were lovely, and a large chunk of those have now wound up in iOS by default too. I've also since determined that the tradeoff (less security, more features) isn't one I'm still happy to make anymore, so have given up and accepted that I can do what Apple permits, and that's it. It's not the ideal solution, but the ideal solution doesn't currently exist, and this is the least-bad in my view of the tradeoffs involved.
- Redoubts 7y ago
  But we know what's possible because other platforms like android exist.

soulofmischief 7y ago

"hold off on this until it's fixed" is definitely reasonable. However, that's not what OP said. OP said, "Dont install apps outside the app store." That reminds me of the kind of apologetic advice I get from the Microsoft community when dealing with Windows' strange behavior and anti-user choices. > It's pretty ironic to hear a complaint about the walled garden, when the only apparent way to solve this "0day" is probably going to be to put up another wall. You're conflating two separate issues. Microsoft has a certification program for Windows programs, Linux has extremely nuanced permissions, SELinux, etc. This has been solved elsewhere but the walled garden of iOS is deliberately ill-designed and is not a robust solution.

oarsinsync 7y ago
As a technical user, I share in your frustrations. iOS may be more secure out of the box, but it's an all-or-nothing solution. Either you take what they give you and put your faith in the almighty Apple, or you break out and have no protection at all. Unlike other platforms, where there is a range of options to us, where if we work hard enough, we can make our platform more secure, while still maintaining our freedom to do as we please, because we know what we're doing. That said, I remain grateful that there's at least one mass consumer facing platform that is secure by default and user friendly. For the vast majority of the world, this is more valuable than the ability to tinker. For me personally, it ends up being a toss up. I lament my restrictions, but I'm grateful for the significantly reduced amount of technical support I'm required to do now compared to the (good|bad|^$) old days when a PC / laptop was everyone's primary computing device.
hugofloss 7y ago
For me the walled garden of iOS attracts me to the platform. Its apps are relatively safe, stable and curated. Sure, these restrictions might suck for you as a power user. For me, someone who makes phone calls, chats with family, takes pictures and reads the news this is just perfect. I don't need to think a lot about security because the platform thinks about it for me. For you it feels like prison, for me it feels like one thing less to worry about. For you it's ill-designed, for me it's designed for me the consumer. I'm curious what your definition of robust is.
- ken 7y ago
  Not the person you were responding to, but: implements security with fine-grained and system-enforced permissions, not human approval for apps. One of these methods has a much better track record than the other.
- soulofmischief 7y ago
  It sucks for me as a power user because I prefer Apple's corporate ethos, but their increasingly quirky UI and no recourse for things like alternative launchers make it an automatic no-go because I can't stand Apple's interfaces. It seems silly to most people but I get physical anxiety from interfaces which don't behave consistently or make me feel claustrophobic, and I've grown tired of relearning iOS every few years. To the point where I'm using hole-ridden Android devices with bags of telemetry by default, but with a consistent launcher I've used for many years and know how to navigate. No hidden UI tricks. If Apple would allow people like me to control the devices we buy, I would finally have a home in the mobile market.
  - dkonofalski 7y ago
    >but I get physical anxiety from interfaces which don't behave consistently or make me feel claustrophobic I feel terribly for you. I can't imagine being in my own way so much that Apple's UI would give me physical anxiety.
    - soulofmischief 7y ago
Jonnax 7y ago
There's such a simple solution: don't buy an iPhone. They're not hiding anything from you about their walled garden.
- oarsinsync 7y ago
  > There's such a simple solution: don't buy an iPhone. Is there a platform that gives me the freedom to run what I want, provides a decent security model, doesn't spy on everything I do, and if you squint just right, 'just works'? If not, there is no simple solution, there's just different tradeoffs in a huge pile of poop.
  - soulofmischief 7y ago
    Yeah, I don't understand why this position needs defending. Both Google and Apple's app stores have major problems, and they could learn a little from each other.

tasogare 7y ago

No, they make it hard on purpose even for hobbyist developers with cumbersome signing process and 7 days limit, as a way to bank on the 99$/year registration.

fredsted 7y ago
Making it harder also heightens the bar so low-quality or malicious apps don't get in.
Aaargh20318 7y ago
$99/year is peanuts, that's less than 1 hour of developer time. All it does is prevent spammers from creating a shitload of free accounts.
- outadoc 7y ago
  > $99/year is peanuts, that's less than 1 hour of developer time lol, I wish.
  - kdtsh 7y ago
    Well ... it might not be what a developer is paid, but it's the value a developer creates for a business (experience and training withstanding of course), if you catch my drift.
  - Aaargh20318 7y ago
    There's a difference between your salary, what you cost to the company, and how much they charge the customer for your time.
- Monory 7y ago
  You're not thinking of programmers from developing countries. It can be several days wage there.
- iso1631 7y ago
  99 cents a year would stop spammers creating a ton of accounts too

greggman3 7y ago

You don't know what apps you're missing if you can't see what apps would exist without the restrictions. That's like saying "I've rented from Blockbuster Video from over a decade without needing to view videos Blockbuster doesn't carry"

oarsinsync 7y ago
Completely agree. It's also the view that people held regarding blackerries pre-iphone. A hardware keyboard was essential because the alternative was not an option. As someone who used to jailbreak, I've definitely found tools in the past in the jailbreak store that were lovely, and a large chunk of those have now wound up in iOS by default too. I've also since determined that the tradeoff (less security, more features) isn't one I'm still happy to make anymore, so have given up and accepted that I can do what Apple permits, and that's it. It's not the ideal solution, but the ideal solution doesn't currently exist, and this is the least-bad in my view of the tradeoffs involved.
Redoubts 7y ago
But we know what's possible because other platforms like android exist.