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> I also have friends who have been in tech for close to ten years, and are close to burning out I realize the audience here is probably mostly younger folks b

> I also have friends who have been in tech for close to ten years, and are close to burning out I realize the audience here is probably mostly younger folks but 10 years doing anything is not that much time IMO. I think a 3rd or 4th burnout at 30 years of service is a lot harder to recover from, but I’m biased from my own experience.

xiaolingxiao 6y ago
Yeah you're absolutely correct. I wish I had more perspective to offer but that's what I got. The OP also sounds younger (I may be wrong), so I hope it is ok.
throwaway839246 6y ago
Would you share yours? I'd really like to hear from an older person. I'd imagine you know 10x of what I do now. It would be incredibly helpful if you could share some of what you've experienced and learned.
- sanderjd 6y ago
  Mostly guessing, but I think I'm like halfway between you and the commenter you're replying to. I've been where you are, not from the exact same path, but what you're feeling is familiar to me. My two cents: I find joy doing challenging work on products that are useful to a bunch of people without needing to be "the next big thing". But what I find more joy in is my life outside of work, in spending time with and taking care of my extended family (including my close friends). The most success I've had with this so far has been at a big tech company. This is for a number of reasons: the product I work on is more likely to be useful to lots of people that way (because a lot of the marketing work has been done already), which also makes the work challenging (because scale brings challenges), and compensation and work-life balance are good so I can spend a lot of low-stress time focusing on family. I personally find the most joy working on things that mostly make money through charging people money for services because it feels like the most honest way for my salary to be paid, but I'm not sure how much that relates to this, it might just be a personal preference. Reading your post, I wondered whether you misinterpreted your big-tech coworkers. They might not have been checked out, they might have just been doing their work while having other interests that were more important to them. That is my interpretation of the people I work with (and of myself). I think it can look pretty lame to excited young people, but it's actually the opposite; what's lame is being super into working rather than other better things. But as a follow-on, something I've been thinking about recently is whether I can take the useful skills I've built through a career in tech and apply them elsewhere, supported by the savings I've been able to build up. I'm not sure what that looks like, but being able to gather, process, analyze, and operationalize data seems important for lots of things, and that's something I know how to do (and I'm not alone here, software is largely about processing data). But I don't know what the most useful thing is to do with those skills; right now what seems important and in demand is epidemiology, but it's probably too late to become useful to this moment. Probably something in the broad sustainability space is more forward-looking. I'm still looking around. I guess the two points I'm trying to make are: 1. You may be able to find joy by having more modest expectations, and 2. There may be other useful things to do with the skills you built, you should keep your eyes open for them. Hope this helps a bit, cheers!
- dkdk8283 6y ago
  My first burnout was pure depletion of energy. I was young, passionate, and believed in doing the best work I could. I was addicted to work and pushed myself to deliver. I did, and built a career. I left after almost a decade at that company and went to a new job that had 20x the employees and was well resourced. I got to kick back a bit and the job was more about delivering accurately and not delivering volume. I spent the first 3 years in that position recovering from prior burnout while still working. I got bored, so I quit and started a business. I worked myself for years right into the ground, burned out again. I took a few months off and relaxed. I ended up geting bored again before I fully recovered and went back to work. I changed career tracks and switched technologies figuring this would give me a challenge and excitement. A new profession, systems, and rules of engagement. I was truly excited at first and I worked hard. Then I burned out again, before having recovered from prior burnout. This time it isn't due to lack of work/life balance, its due to lack of technological and social satisfaction. At first I thought it was a bout of imposter syndrome as it's a new career but as time went on I realized it's more about the industry, the direction it's going, and the effects of people getting into STEM for money and not because they're technologists. It's a lot of younger folks who boast about their adderall abuse, get excited to give presentations, and other stuff that I'm really not interested in. I'm stuck in burnout #3 now. It’s easier to burn out after the first one. I don't have the ability to make a risky move at the moment, I have people who depend on me. I don't know what my next move is now but as you age and your responsibility grows your options shrink. I think I might ride out the virus and look for a new job in the hopes a new environment will give me a push to keep going.
  - sanderjd 6y ago
    > as you age and your responsibility grows your options shrink This is common but not a universal experience. I do have much more responsibility now, but also a lot more options; unlike in our youth, we have no unsecured debt, don't live paycheck to paycheck, and have savings, which gives me the ability to plan ahead.
invsblduck 6y ago
i'm about 40 yrs old - been working in tech (with linux) since the late 90s. gave my life to it, lost my physical and mental health; burned out numerous times. can't stand this industry anymore. moral of the story: 99% of people still don't understand the nature of software. very few people--like rich hickey (clojure), or fpb (mythical man-month)--seem to get it. tech is mainstream and most people are missing historical context and experience. (the goals of capitalism are typically at odds with building systems of the highest quality--and understandably so.) the only creative spark in computing i have to sooth myself anymore is reading lisp or unix books from the 80s and 90s, because the content is so thoughtful (given the culture and smaller community at the time). the internet has become ruined by advertising and bloatware, and the culture has largely been ruined by bad habits and misunderstanding, imo.
- dkdk8283 6y ago
  Sounds exactly like me. My burnout has gotten worse now that tech is mainstream. My current gig is more like a regular business that just happens to develop software. Most of the staff are social first technology second. I don’t fit in at all, and to be frank it depresses me. Not sure what I’m going to do in the future. I can’t shoot the shit and talk strace or gdb with any of them.
  - invsblduck 6y ago
    After reading your reply to OP below, I agree we have a super similar path. Especially the beginning: > My first burnout was pure depletion of energy. I was young, passionate, and believed in doing the best work I could. I was addicted to work and pushed myself to deliver. I did, and built a career. I left after almost a decade at that company [...] (However, I never found a way to leave "Tech" for another profession--especially once I achieved a certain salary range, and others depended on me.) > I can’t shoot the shit and talk strace or gdb with any of them. Know the feeling exactly...
- HighPlainsDrftr 6y ago
  > moral of the story: 99% of people still don't understand the > nature of software. very few people--like rich hickey ? ? (clojure), or fpb (mythical man-month)--seem to get it. tech >?is mainstream and most people are missing historical context >and experience. This is it. As engineers, we want to build the best can. As managers of a business, we want to product the most profit we can. As marketers, the more income that comes in, the better off we are. Chose 2 of the 3. Marketing almost always wins one of those slots. If someone could produce a solid infrastructure to get rid of ads and all that nonsense, but still get a product out in front of everyone, I think that might be the holy grail. (I hope that if you figure this out - you might give me a .5% royalty) when your successful.
HighPlainsDrftr 6y ago
Same here. I've been at it for 25 years - I've had at least 3 major burnouts. For 24 years, I've constantly been saying, I gotta find something else that is far more constructive and rewarding. Yet...Here i am.
darreld 6y ago
This thread has really triggered something in me. I am 63 and recently retired from a gov job, which I hated for years. I just thought I hated my management, which I did. I did recognize symptoms the last couple years (sometimes I was physically unable to work while staring at the screen). My plan was to take a couple months off and then take a contract position doing development. I have been unable to even look earnestly since I secretly cannot stand the idea of going into another enterprise situation. It all seems to me to be utter bullshit. I realize that even though I have had burnout issues a couple times over the last 30 years, this is a major case of burnout that I am experiencing. I have always identified as a programmer, not just worked as a programmer. That was a mistake. I am currently unable to fully retire but now I can think about what else I should do. It is funny how profound this is to me right now all due to simply reading comments.
- burntoutfire 6y ago
  I burn out and quit on a regular basis, it takes me about 6 months to forget how awful it was and start looking for another contract again... I guess I have short memory.
dennis_jeeves 6y ago
>I think a 3rd or 4th burnout at 30 years of service is a lot harder to recover from, but I’m biased from my own experience There is something else going here (or so it was for me). It's not the physical/mental exhaustion as is typically what defines 'burnout'. It's the depressing realization that most people around you are deluded piles of shit, even if they are 'nice' individuals.

xiaolingxiao 6y ago

Yeah you're absolutely correct. I wish I had more perspective to offer but that's what I got. The OP also sounds younger (I may be wrong), so I hope it is ok.

throwaway839246 6y ago

Would you share yours? I'd really like to hear from an older person. I'd imagine you know 10x of what I do now. It would be incredibly helpful if you could share some of what you've experienced and learned.

sanderjd 6y ago
Mostly guessing, but I think I'm like halfway between you and the commenter you're replying to. I've been where you are, not from the exact same path, but what you're feeling is familiar to me. My two cents: I find joy doing challenging work on products that are useful to a bunch of people without needing to be "the next big thing". But what I find more joy in is my life outside of work, in spending time with and taking care of my extended family (including my close friends). The most success I've had with this so far has been at a big tech company. This is for a number of reasons: the product I work on is more likely to be useful to lots of people that way (because a lot of the marketing work has been done already), which also makes the work challenging (because scale brings challenges), and compensation and work-life balance are good so I can spend a lot of low-stress time focusing on family. I personally find the most joy working on things that mostly make money through charging people money for services because it feels like the most honest way for my salary to be paid, but I'm not sure how much that relates to this, it might just be a personal preference. Reading your post, I wondered whether you misinterpreted your big-tech coworkers. They might not have been checked out, they might have just been doing their work while having other interests that were more important to them. That is my interpretation of the people I work with (and of myself). I think it can look pretty lame to excited young people, but it's actually the opposite; what's lame is being super into working rather than other better things. But as a follow-on, something I've been thinking about recently is whether I can take the useful skills I've built through a career in tech and apply them elsewhere, supported by the savings I've been able to build up. I'm not sure what that looks like, but being able to gather, process, analyze, and operationalize data seems important for lots of things, and that's something I know how to do (and I'm not alone here, software is largely about processing data). But I don't know what the most useful thing is to do with those skills; right now what seems important and in demand is epidemiology, but it's probably too late to become useful to this moment. Probably something in the broad sustainability space is more forward-looking. I'm still looking around. I guess the two points I'm trying to make are: 1. You may be able to find joy by having more modest expectations, and 2. There may be other useful things to do with the skills you built, you should keep your eyes open for them. Hope this helps a bit, cheers!
dkdk8283 6y ago
My first burnout was pure depletion of energy. I was young, passionate, and believed in doing the best work I could. I was addicted to work and pushed myself to deliver. I did, and built a career. I left after almost a decade at that company and went to a new job that had 20x the employees and was well resourced. I got to kick back a bit and the job was more about delivering accurately and not delivering volume. I spent the first 3 years in that position recovering from prior burnout while still working. I got bored, so I quit and started a business. I worked myself for years right into the ground, burned out again. I took a few months off and relaxed. I ended up geting bored again before I fully recovered and went back to work. I changed career tracks and switched technologies figuring this would give me a challenge and excitement. A new profession, systems, and rules of engagement. I was truly excited at first and I worked hard. Then I burned out again, before having recovered from prior burnout. This time it isn't due to lack of work/life balance, its due to lack of technological and social satisfaction. At first I thought it was a bout of imposter syndrome as it's a new career but as time went on I realized it's more about the industry, the direction it's going, and the effects of people getting into STEM for money and not because they're technologists. It's a lot of younger folks who boast about their adderall abuse, get excited to give presentations, and other stuff that I'm really not interested in. I'm stuck in burnout #3 now. It’s easier to burn out after the first one. I don't have the ability to make a risky move at the moment, I have people who depend on me. I don't know what my next move is now but as you age and your responsibility grows your options shrink. I think I might ride out the virus and look for a new job in the hopes a new environment will give me a push to keep going.
- sanderjd 6y ago
  > as you age and your responsibility grows your options shrink This is common but not a universal experience. I do have much more responsibility now, but also a lot more options; unlike in our youth, we have no unsecured debt, don't live paycheck to paycheck, and have savings, which gives me the ability to plan ahead.

invsblduck 6y ago

i'm about 40 yrs old - been working in tech (with linux) since the late 90s. gave my life to it, lost my physical and mental health; burned out numerous times. can't stand this industry anymore. moral of the story: 99% of people still don't understand the nature of software. very few people--like rich hickey (clojure), or fpb (mythical man-month)--seem to get it. tech is mainstream and most people are missing historical context and experience. (the goals of capitalism are typically at odds with building systems of the highest quality--and understandably so.) the only creative spark in computing i have to sooth myself anymore is reading lisp or unix books from the 80s and 90s, because the content is so thoughtful (given the culture and smaller community at the time). the internet has become ruined by advertising and bloatware, and the culture has largely been ruined by bad habits and misunderstanding, imo.

dkdk8283 6y ago
Sounds exactly like me. My burnout has gotten worse now that tech is mainstream. My current gig is more like a regular business that just happens to develop software. Most of the staff are social first technology second. I don’t fit in at all, and to be frank it depresses me. Not sure what I’m going to do in the future. I can’t shoot the shit and talk strace or gdb with any of them.
- invsblduck 6y ago
  After reading your reply to OP below, I agree we have a super similar path. Especially the beginning: > My first burnout was pure depletion of energy. I was young, passionate, and believed in doing the best work I could. I was addicted to work and pushed myself to deliver. I did, and built a career. I left after almost a decade at that company [...] (However, I never found a way to leave "Tech" for another profession--especially once I achieved a certain salary range, and others depended on me.) > I can’t shoot the shit and talk strace or gdb with any of them. Know the feeling exactly...
HighPlainsDrftr 6y ago
> moral of the story: 99% of people still don't understand the > nature of software. very few people--like rich hickey ? ? (clojure), or fpb (mythical man-month)--seem to get it. tech >?is mainstream and most people are missing historical context >and experience. This is it. As engineers, we want to build the best can. As managers of a business, we want to product the most profit we can. As marketers, the more income that comes in, the better off we are. Chose 2 of the 3. Marketing almost always wins one of those slots. If someone could produce a solid infrastructure to get rid of ads and all that nonsense, but still get a product out in front of everyone, I think that might be the holy grail. (I hope that if you figure this out - you might give me a .5% royalty) when your successful.

HighPlainsDrftr 6y ago

Same here. I've been at it for 25 years - I've had at least 3 major burnouts. For 24 years, I've constantly been saying, I gotta find something else that is far more constructive and rewarding. Yet...Here i am.

darreld 6y ago

This thread has really triggered something in me. I am 63 and recently retired from a gov job, which I hated for years. I just thought I hated my management, which I did. I did recognize symptoms the last couple years (sometimes I was physically unable to work while staring at the screen). My plan was to take a couple months off and then take a contract position doing development. I have been unable to even look earnestly since I secretly cannot stand the idea of going into another enterprise situation. It all seems to me to be utter bullshit. I realize that even though I have had burnout issues a couple times over the last 30 years, this is a major case of burnout that I am experiencing. I have always identified as a programmer, not just worked as a programmer. That was a mistake. I am currently unable to fully retire but now I can think about what else I should do. It is funny how profound this is to me right now all due to simply reading comments.

burntoutfire 6y ago
I burn out and quit on a regular basis, it takes me about 6 months to forget how awful it was and start looking for another contract again... I guess I have short memory.

dennis_jeeves 6y ago

>I think a 3rd or 4th burnout at 30 years of service is a lot harder to recover from, but I’m biased from my own experience There is something else going here (or so it was for me). It's not the physical/mental exhaustion as is typically what defines 'burnout'. It's the depressing realization that most people around you are deluded piles of shit, even if they are 'nice' individuals.