24 ms·

I could argue the exact same about literally any database used by the government. Their tools are just easier to use and more expressive. If you don’t like the

I could argue the exact same about literally any database used by the government. Their tools are just easier to use and more expressive. If you don’t like the bullshit the government does, that seems like an issue you should take up with the government, no? You’re using a tech company as a scapegoat.

saagarjha 6y ago
A technology company that takes advantage of holes in the law, and actively promotes that those holes are not closed…
- andy_ppp 6y ago
  A company then...
nicwolff 6y ago
> Their tools are just easier to use and more expressive. And that's the problem – they're giving governments tools that let them more easily and effectively infringe on the privacy rights of their citizens. Privacy isn't invaded when the data is collected, although that's a necessary step; it's invaded when a cop or bureaucrat queries that data to see what a citizen has done. Giving them that tool is morally complicit. ~ "That's not my department," said Wernher von Braun. ~
- catalogia 6y ago
  https://youtu.be/5V7me25aNtI?t=16 https://youtu.be/5V7me25aNtI?t=16
- forgotmylogin2 6y ago
  This is a ridiculous stance to take. If true, then open sourcing any form of software is morally corrupt since the government could then use it for evil. Quite frankly, I don't think any reasonable person would consider selling software to the government to be morally corrupt unless they were reasonably confident the government would use it for evil. Right now, nobody has made a compelling-enough argument to make me believe the government will use this software for evil.
  - int_19h 6y ago
    Intent matters. Palantir specifically makes surveillance tech, and specifically markets it to governments. As for compelling arguments... is the history of most of the world's governments not enough for you? In US, you can look at the census for a case in point: this data was used to chase draft dodgers during WW1, and to compile list of Japanese for internment during WW2. Curiously, by WW2, the federal census law had specific provisions preventing the Bureau from disclosing that information to any other government agencies, precisely to prevent this kind of use - Congress simply repealed those provisions. Nevertheless, the Bureau subsequently denied sharing that data and buried any leads, so we didn't have definitive proof until this century. Or we could talk about COINTELPRO, PRISM etc.
  - heavyset_go 6y ago
    > This is a ridiculous stance to take. If true, then open sourcing any form of software is morally corrupt since the government could then use it for evil. There are popular licenses with such clauses.
- taywrobel 6y ago
  As soon as the data is collected it is going to be used. That is where the privacy invasion is. If a massive data set on citizens leaks and becomes available online, people will still consider it an invasion of privacy, even if it was never "used" prior.
zaroth 6y ago
The same argument is actually used w.r.t. DHS/ICE using GitHub to work on software to better track illegal immigrants. This is software that will ostensibly cut down on errors and speed up processing times for things like asylum claims, but for some reason Github was called out as being complicit. I think the argument against Palantir is better formed than an argument against Github based on specificity of the tool, but I think both are driven more by viral outrage than careful consideration of any moral calculus or actual hands-on knowledge of how the tools are used.
- GaryNumanVevo 6y ago
  One is explicit, the other implicit. Palantir is _explicitly_ contracted by a government to create a tool for combining surveillance information to make tracking individuals more effective. Github is providing tools (Github Enterprise IIRC) which is presumable being used to create tools which are used to track and deport individuals.
bigiain 6y ago
Some databases used by governments are for things like making sure people driving cars have received the required training/certifications to share public roads, or that their vehicles carry the necessary insurance. Other databases get used to track down, torture, and murder critical journalists - by dismembering them with a bone saw while they're still alive. Remind me again which kind of database Palantir staff work on?
- taywrobel 6y ago
  Well, when I was at Palantir I worked with police departments integrate a dozen or so databases so looking someone up took one query rather than several, cutting down on the time needed for traffic stops drastically. The software was also used to run double blind clinical drug trials - the acl granularity was great at that; you could have different roles for drug manufacturers, doctors, and patients, none of which had absolute information. Then trial supervisors could open up the data for analysis at the end of the trial. At that same time, the ability to use GPS phones to upload data over unreliable networks was used when they teamed up with the Clinton foundation and Team Rubicon to improve disaster relief coordination for hurricanes. Myself or coworkers (“Palantir staff”) worked on all of these.
GaryNumanVevo 6y ago
It isn't simply a database, as I'm sure you know. There are multiple pipelines of information which need to be glued together, cross correlated, etc. They (Palantir) provide services to make policing citizens easier and allow police departments to overstep their boundaries. Also, I'd like to point out that this isn't an "either or" situation. Obviously the government is involved, as they no doubt put out the contracts, but Palantir is the one cashing the check. They've created their entire business model around big secretive government contracts.

saagarjha 6y ago

A technology company that takes advantage of holes in the law, and actively promotes that those holes are not closed…

andy_ppp 6y ago
A company then...

nicwolff 6y ago

> Their tools are just easier to use and more expressive. And that's the problem – they're giving governments tools that let them more easily and effectively infringe on the privacy rights of their citizens. Privacy isn't invaded when the data is collected, although that's a necessary step; it's invaded when a cop or bureaucrat queries that data to see what a citizen has done. Giving them that tool is morally complicit. ~ "That's not my department," said Wernher von Braun. ~

catalogia 6y ago
https://youtu.be/5V7me25aNtI?t=16 https://youtu.be/5V7me25aNtI?t=16
forgotmylogin2 6y ago
This is a ridiculous stance to take. If true, then open sourcing any form of software is morally corrupt since the government could then use it for evil. Quite frankly, I don't think any reasonable person would consider selling software to the government to be morally corrupt unless they were reasonably confident the government would use it for evil. Right now, nobody has made a compelling-enough argument to make me believe the government will use this software for evil.
- int_19h 6y ago
  Intent matters. Palantir specifically makes surveillance tech, and specifically markets it to governments. As for compelling arguments... is the history of most of the world's governments not enough for you? In US, you can look at the census for a case in point: this data was used to chase draft dodgers during WW1, and to compile list of Japanese for internment during WW2. Curiously, by WW2, the federal census law had specific provisions preventing the Bureau from disclosing that information to any other government agencies, precisely to prevent this kind of use - Congress simply repealed those provisions. Nevertheless, the Bureau subsequently denied sharing that data and buried any leads, so we didn't have definitive proof until this century. Or we could talk about COINTELPRO, PRISM etc.
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  > This is a ridiculous stance to take. If true, then open sourcing any form of software is morally corrupt since the government could then use it for evil. There are popular licenses with such clauses.
taywrobel 6y ago
As soon as the data is collected it is going to be used. That is where the privacy invasion is. If a massive data set on citizens leaks and becomes available online, people will still consider it an invasion of privacy, even if it was never "used" prior.

zaroth 6y ago

The same argument is actually used w.r.t. DHS/ICE using GitHub to work on software to better track illegal immigrants. This is software that will ostensibly cut down on errors and speed up processing times for things like asylum claims, but for some reason Github was called out as being complicit. I think the argument against Palantir is better formed than an argument against Github based on specificity of the tool, but I think both are driven more by viral outrage than careful consideration of any moral calculus or actual hands-on knowledge of how the tools are used.

GaryNumanVevo 6y ago
One is explicit, the other implicit. Palantir is _explicitly_ contracted by a government to create a tool for combining surveillance information to make tracking individuals more effective. Github is providing tools (Github Enterprise IIRC) which is presumable being used to create tools which are used to track and deport individuals.

bigiain 6y ago

Some databases used by governments are for things like making sure people driving cars have received the required training/certifications to share public roads, or that their vehicles carry the necessary insurance. Other databases get used to track down, torture, and murder critical journalists - by dismembering them with a bone saw while they're still alive. Remind me again which kind of database Palantir staff work on?

taywrobel 6y ago
Well, when I was at Palantir I worked with police departments integrate a dozen or so databases so looking someone up took one query rather than several, cutting down on the time needed for traffic stops drastically. The software was also used to run double blind clinical drug trials - the acl granularity was great at that; you could have different roles for drug manufacturers, doctors, and patients, none of which had absolute information. Then trial supervisors could open up the data for analysis at the end of the trial. At that same time, the ability to use GPS phones to upload data over unreliable networks was used when they teamed up with the Clinton foundation and Team Rubicon to improve disaster relief coordination for hurricanes. Myself or coworkers (“Palantir staff”) worked on all of these.

GaryNumanVevo 6y ago

It isn't simply a database, as I'm sure you know. There are multiple pipelines of information which need to be glued together, cross correlated, etc. They (Palantir) provide services to make policing citizens easier and allow police departments to overstep their boundaries. Also, I'd like to point out that this isn't an "either or" situation. Obviously the government is involved, as they no doubt put out the contracts, but Palantir is the one cashing the check. They've created their entire business model around big secretive government contracts.