4 ms·

Contact tracing is a wet dream for five-eyes. I don't even think it will even be effective given the anticipated number of cases.

raskilinov 6y ago
Perhaps not but would be useful for planning and prep for wave 2 onwards.
cm2187 6y ago
You don't think the 5 eyes don't get handed out mobile data location directly from the cariers? I am more concerned about a database that will inevitably be accessed by lots of researchers, and of course one will think it's a good idea to store a copy on a USB key or a public s3 bucket, etc. It the same story happening again and again and again...
- eternalban 6y ago
  This is a legal framework, that is what is happening now. I noted this a while back in a flippant comment "Capitalism with Chinese Characteristics" (which didn't go down well :). A contact tracing system and a virus with n days of non-symptomatic incubation, and international borders. Let's think this through a bit. Of what benefit is to the traveler admitting/host country (H) to note on the "medical passport" issued by origin country (O)? Obviously, for this thing to even work on paper, countries need to exchange massive amount of information. The fact stands [challenge it!] that the socio-political regime being rolled out in guise of defense against Covid-19 and future viral friends aligns perfectly with a specific ideological position. It really was 'Nature's gift'. What used to be accomplished via violent revolution is being accomplished with 'scientific' efficiency and very little blood. Oh, that figurative blood in the streets of middle and lower classes? "The Virus does not discriminate!".
  - dchyrdvh 6y ago
    But imagine the new frontiers it opens! Countries would exchange and trade massive amounts of user data like oil. Want to participate in air travel? Better to sign treaties to buy tracing data, as without it your country won't be compliant with the international safety laws. I see trillions of new wealth being built there. On a serious note, this reminds me of a quote from one book: "the fourth round will be remarked by a fierce battle between materialistic and spiritual forces in humanity". We're like being subjected by a high voltage electrolysis now: those with moral are being dragged to the right and those without it - to the left.
    - eternalban 6y ago
      I just got an urge to resurrect Frank Herbert to see what he has to say about all this. Wonder who is our dear Leto the God Emperor, the benevolent monster who is dragging an un-surprisingly quiet and docile humanity to its designated future. One hears the monster has 7 heads. I'm not sure about the hand me down binary model conclusion. We're in agreement regarding the inevitability of this turn of events, but then again it was apparently clear as day thousands of years ago to "self isolating" monks. But the clarity of the choice is stark, and like a blast of cold air invigorates one's morals and character. Good luck!
- GekkePrutser 6y ago
  That's true... In a way I think this will actually hamper their efforts. After all: With the corona tracing apps, people are becoming much more aware that their data is used to trace them. A lot of people I know are talking about leaving their phones at home when they go out. Considering the carriers have had this data forever and are probably sharing it, this awareness is a good thing for privacy.
threeseed 6y ago
Stop spreading FUD. Governments have had access to your location and associates for decades via the mobile phone network. I've worked at a telco where we were analysing customer's behaviours and almost everyone follows a pattern at some point e.g. going from home, via public transport to work. The resolution isn't high but over time you build up enough samples to accurately determine exactly where they live, work etc.
- cc81 6y ago
  Yeah, but that is a small part of contact tracing (with law changes needed in some countries). The next step is to have personnel to notify suspected contacts, tell them to isolate themselves and then test them. You need to have enough people for that, you need to have the testing capacity and you need to have people following that order. It will work well if you have very low community spread and can start tracing on cluster level. If you are not there it can still be a good tool but you would probably still need a lot of other restrictions as well.
- jrockway 6y ago
  Collecting vast swaths of data to know where I live and work, which are literally the first two questions on my income tax return btw, is very different from knowing the name of every person I've been near and the location where I'm near them. We've all seen how these "geofence warrants" have gone -- a lot of innocent people being dragged through the court system for absolutely no reason. If we do end up implementing a centralized contact tracing system, the results will be very interesting. I would love to know the name and location of every lobbyist that my elected representatives have met with, and I'm sure that in the name of public health they won't make any efforts to thwart this tracking.
- dkdk8283 6y ago
  It’s much worse than FUD: reality. Mapping known associates is significantly more invasive than location privacy.
- notyourday 6y ago
  > Stop spreading FUD. Governments have had access to your location and associates for decades via the mobile phone network. In that case the governments do not need this silly contact tracing app. They can just use the data they already have.
chimprich 6y ago
This is of little interest to 5-eyes. For a start, installation of the app is voluntary so if you're planning something you really don't want the government to discover, you wouldn't install it. Also, intelligence services already get call metadata so they know which mobile towers you are using and probably lots else. As for effectiveness, I think it will be useful. There have been several papers crunching the numbers and it looks like it will have an effect. It doesn't need to be perfect - any non-trivial reduction in R is helpful.
- Sephiroth87 6y ago
  Voluntary for now
- PaulRobinson 6y ago
  They mentioned a few weeks back that the end goal would be if you had the app it could act as a virtual health passport and you’d be allowed to go out shopping, go to work and the pub, etc. And without it? Stay at home. So yeah, technically voluntary, but, y‘know...
  - ghaff 6y ago
    Install it on a secondary phone? Of course it all depends on how serious the government is and how hard you are willing to work to circumvent controls.
    - parkovski 6y ago
      Just a minor annoyance except of course for those not rich enough to own two phones, but I suppose if you didn't want to be oppressed you should have thought of that before you decided to be born poor, right?
      - iso1210 6y ago
        You can get a cheap android phone and a faraday cage bag for the cost of a night out at the pub

raskilinov 6y ago

Perhaps not but would be useful for planning and prep for wave 2 onwards.

cm2187 6y ago

You don't think the 5 eyes don't get handed out mobile data location directly from the cariers? I am more concerned about a database that will inevitably be accessed by lots of researchers, and of course one will think it's a good idea to store a copy on a USB key or a public s3 bucket, etc. It the same story happening again and again and again...

eternalban 6y ago
This is a legal framework, that is what is happening now. I noted this a while back in a flippant comment "Capitalism with Chinese Characteristics" (which didn't go down well :). A contact tracing system and a virus with n days of non-symptomatic incubation, and international borders. Let's think this through a bit. Of what benefit is to the traveler admitting/host country (H) to note on the "medical passport" issued by origin country (O)? Obviously, for this thing to even work on paper, countries need to exchange massive amount of information. The fact stands [challenge it!] that the socio-political regime being rolled out in guise of defense against Covid-19 and future viral friends aligns perfectly with a specific ideological position. It really was 'Nature's gift'. What used to be accomplished via violent revolution is being accomplished with 'scientific' efficiency and very little blood. Oh, that figurative blood in the streets of middle and lower classes? "The Virus does not discriminate!".
- dchyrdvh 6y ago
  But imagine the new frontiers it opens! Countries would exchange and trade massive amounts of user data like oil. Want to participate in air travel? Better to sign treaties to buy tracing data, as without it your country won't be compliant with the international safety laws. I see trillions of new wealth being built there. On a serious note, this reminds me of a quote from one book: "the fourth round will be remarked by a fierce battle between materialistic and spiritual forces in humanity". We're like being subjected by a high voltage electrolysis now: those with moral are being dragged to the right and those without it - to the left.
  - eternalban 6y ago
    I just got an urge to resurrect Frank Herbert to see what he has to say about all this. Wonder who is our dear Leto the God Emperor, the benevolent monster who is dragging an un-surprisingly quiet and docile humanity to its designated future. One hears the monster has 7 heads. I'm not sure about the hand me down binary model conclusion. We're in agreement regarding the inevitability of this turn of events, but then again it was apparently clear as day thousands of years ago to "self isolating" monks. But the clarity of the choice is stark, and like a blast of cold air invigorates one's morals and character. Good luck!
GekkePrutser 6y ago
That's true... In a way I think this will actually hamper their efforts. After all: With the corona tracing apps, people are becoming much more aware that their data is used to trace them. A lot of people I know are talking about leaving their phones at home when they go out. Considering the carriers have had this data forever and are probably sharing it, this awareness is a good thing for privacy.

threeseed 6y ago

Stop spreading FUD. Governments have had access to your location and associates for decades via the mobile phone network. I've worked at a telco where we were analysing customer's behaviours and almost everyone follows a pattern at some point e.g. going from home, via public transport to work. The resolution isn't high but over time you build up enough samples to accurately determine exactly where they live, work etc.

cc81 6y ago
Yeah, but that is a small part of contact tracing (with law changes needed in some countries). The next step is to have personnel to notify suspected contacts, tell them to isolate themselves and then test them. You need to have enough people for that, you need to have the testing capacity and you need to have people following that order. It will work well if you have very low community spread and can start tracing on cluster level. If you are not there it can still be a good tool but you would probably still need a lot of other restrictions as well.
jrockway 6y ago
Collecting vast swaths of data to know where I live and work, which are literally the first two questions on my income tax return btw, is very different from knowing the name of every person I've been near and the location where I'm near them. We've all seen how these "geofence warrants" have gone -- a lot of innocent people being dragged through the court system for absolutely no reason. If we do end up implementing a centralized contact tracing system, the results will be very interesting. I would love to know the name and location of every lobbyist that my elected representatives have met with, and I'm sure that in the name of public health they won't make any efforts to thwart this tracking.
dkdk8283 6y ago
It’s much worse than FUD: reality. Mapping known associates is significantly more invasive than location privacy.
notyourday 6y ago
> Stop spreading FUD. Governments have had access to your location and associates for decades via the mobile phone network. In that case the governments do not need this silly contact tracing app. They can just use the data they already have.

chimprich 6y ago

This is of little interest to 5-eyes. For a start, installation of the app is voluntary so if you're planning something you really don't want the government to discover, you wouldn't install it. Also, intelligence services already get call metadata so they know which mobile towers you are using and probably lots else. As for effectiveness, I think it will be useful. There have been several papers crunching the numbers and it looks like it will have an effect. It doesn't need to be perfect - any non-trivial reduction in R is helpful.

Sephiroth87 6y ago
Voluntary for now
PaulRobinson 6y ago
They mentioned a few weeks back that the end goal would be if you had the app it could act as a virtual health passport and you’d be allowed to go out shopping, go to work and the pub, etc. And without it? Stay at home. So yeah, technically voluntary, but, y‘know...
- ghaff 6y ago
  Install it on a secondary phone? Of course it all depends on how serious the government is and how hard you are willing to work to circumvent controls.
  - parkovski 6y ago
    Just a minor annoyance except of course for those not rich enough to own two phones, but I suppose if you didn't want to be oppressed you should have thought of that before you decided to be born poor, right?
    - iso1210 6y ago
      You can get a cheap android phone and a faraday cage bag for the cost of a night out at the pub