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I've been wondering about the UK contact tracing app because they seem to be deliberately misleading saying that data is secure on the phone, yet it's a central

by AJRF 6y ago

I've been wondering about the UK contact tracing app because they seem to be deliberately misleading saying that data is secure on the phone, yet it's a centralised model, and they are using bullshit terms like "clinically secure algorithm" to describe the one-time codes; Is the source code of these apps something that could be FOI requested from NHSx seeing as it is publicly funded by the tax payer? Also they've already started moving the goal posts; https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/05/04/uk_covid_app_human_rights_parliament/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/05/04/uk_covid_app_human_... This* came from NCSC - that image about the NHS version worries me greatly. * https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/blog-post/security-behind-nhs-contact-tracing-app https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/blog-post/security-behind-nhs-contac...

jjgreen 6y ago
Given that Palantir is involved, I'd not touch it with a long stick https://tech.newstatesman.com/coronavirus/palantir-covid19-datastore-coronavirus https://tech.newstatesman.com/coronavirus/palantir-covid19-d...
- AJRF 6y ago
  Oh wow I had no idea Palintir was involved, I feel like I've finally turned in to the paranoid old fool that people laugh at, but this really upsets me to think of the millions of people who are going to install this without so much as a thought.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - uoaei 6y ago
    The thing about those paranoid old fools is that some of them are right. But where they are stuck at the level of trying to convince others to just "look with your eyes, see the truth right in front of you!" those with actual experience with praxis know it's much more fruitful to put your efforts toward political campaigns. Grassroots is a thing but it's always some weird combination of coercion and rhetoric about morals and ethics, because most people don't care so you have to make them care before the movement picks up steam.
    - EGreg 6y ago
      Talk is cheap. Have vegetarians converted a lot of people to give up meat? No, you need viable alternatives for people to switch. Like the Impossible Burger and so on. Until then talking won’t change anything. Not even Snowden level revelations would change it. Sure you can try to use government to fight government. Or... just build the alternative. We built the Web. We killed AOL MSN and Compuserve. Build open source, end to end encrypted, self healing and rebalancing networks that use a version of Kademlia DHT that removes IP addresses from each hop. And also run consensus in small groups about stuff. That’s the future right there. Trouble is, we are only seeing its infancy. I can think of about 2-3 projects that are pulling it off. And they have been working for years. PS: When this happens, user accounts and quotas will be replaced with crypto, and centralized servers and databases will be only by opt in. They wouldn’t automatically be a thing just because they provide the infrastructure. Infra should become completely commoditized. PPS: But. You’ll have to worry massivelu about botnets, sybil attacks and massive disinfo campaigns and reputationao attacks by sleeper AI bots. “Fun” times ahead ...
- thelittleone 6y ago
  Seems like many countries have contact tracing apps (Australia is one) are they all based on Palantir?
  - incompatible 6y ago
    The Australian app is reportedly based on an open source app from Singapore. The Australian government said it would release the source for its own version in a couple of weeks. The code is GPL, if it's this one: https://github.com/OpenTrace-community https://github.com/OpenTrace-community.
- TLightful 6y ago
  Palantir involvement? Yup ... I'll take the coronavirus, please.
  - pmiller2 6y ago
    I'll take 2 coronavirus.
- taywrobel 6y ago
  Having worked at Palantir, I’m curious which outdated misconceptions you’re still harboring? It’s a giant federated search engine... that’s about it. They don’t even hold any data themselves, it all stays on site with the customer.
  - SSLy 6y ago
    I'll use an analogy: they might not be the warlords, but they are the weapon traffickers.
    - taywrobel 6y ago
      I disagree with that analogy. Palantir isn’t getting them more data. It’s helping them use it more effectively. The organizations already have all the data recorded. If you don’t like the data that organizations record, I’m right there with you, but demonizing the tools that allow them to access data more effectively is an absurd stance to take. Their system also does things like add an immutable audit log, or enforce requirements on how data can be accessed. Working with law enforcement, before Palantir there was nothing preventing an officer from looking up their ex husband or wife, or celebrities, or anyone at random. With it, there’s an audit trail of every search, and most of them need a case number as justification. Even then, certain searches would automatically get flagged for review. We can go back to giving people direct and unaudited SQL access if you’d like, but I’d prefer some more accountability, even if the downside is organizations being able to use data _they already have_ more effectively.
      - conanbatt 6y ago
        A rationalization at best. Facilitating an immoral act is active participation.
        taywrobel 6y ago
        Do you buy things from amazon? They treat their warehouse employees terribly, so I hope not, lest you facilitate an immoral act. Do you ever use uber? They work to keep their drivers legally declared as contractors, despite treating them employees in all other regards. That’s pretty immoral, so I hope you don’t encourage it by supplying them with business.
- iamnotarobotman 6y ago
  P A L A N T I R. I would treat this app as advanced kleptographic malware after knowing that they're developing this app with the NHS to contact trace millions of people to 'stop the spread' on a centralised server.
- disappearance 6y ago
  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/12/uk-government-using-confidential-patient-data-in-coronavirus-response https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/12/uk-government-...
- andrepd 6y ago
  > Palantir is involved Holy shit, and I didn't think that this whole contact tracing bullshit could look even worse.
  - EGreg 6y ago
    Can someone please explain to me how a “libertarian” like Peter Thiel could start and run one of the most anti libertarian companies? What are his beliefs, exactly? I mean besides “zero to one” and “competition is for losers, build a monopoly”? I wonder how much effect he had on Zuck early on. He was the first big check in. Seems it was a great match there.
    - IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago
      I will venture a guess. Principles dont matter if you dont have the money to put them into practice. If palantir is what it takes for him to fund/back a visionary company or leader that will create a truly freer society, then that investment was well worth it.
    - ljm 6y ago
      Because his wealth isn't enough and he can still insert himself into other policies to obtain more influence, more power, and more money? My question to you is why you care what Thiel thinks and why you're dissapointed. As far as I'm concerned, these guys are the lowest of the low and they only hold their position through gross exploitation. Nobody should be amassing this impossible wealth and seeking to gain more and these CEOs are basically economic despots to my mind.
    - int_19h 6y ago
      There's libertarians, and then there's libertarians. Thiel is a huge fan of Hans Hermann-Hoppe, who writes things like: "In a covenant concluded among proprietor and community tenants for the purpose of protecting their private property, no such thing as a right to free (unlimited) speech exists, not even to unlimited speech on one's own tenant-property. One may say innumerable things and promote almost any idea under the sun, but naturally no one is permitted to advocate ideas contrary to the very purpose of the covenant of preserving and protecting private property, such as democracy and communism. There can be no tolerance toward democrats and communists in a libertarian social order. They will have to be physically separated and expelled from society. Likewise, in a covenant founded for the purpose of protecting family and kin, there can be no tolerance toward those habitually promoting lifestyles incompatible with this goal. They – the advocates of alternative, non-family and kin-centered lifestyles such as, for instance, individual hedonism, parasitism, nature-environment worship, homosexuality, or communism – will have to be physically removed from society, too, if one is to maintain a libertarian order." This quote is from Hoppe's "Democracy: The God That Failed", which Thiel has referenced before. The overall thesis there is that economic freedom is the cornerstone of libertarianism, and it's fundamentally incompatible with democracy, so libertarians have to explore other options. It specifically promotes monarchy, on the basis that a monarch is more like a business owner with a vested long-term interest. You might argue that this isn't really libertarianism - indeed, many libertarians don't consider Hoppe to be one. This is basically proto-neo-reaction, at the point where it still hasn't explicitly rejected libertarianism altogether. But regardless of where you draw the line, this all is the evolution of Murray Rothbard's strain of libertarianism, after it moved away from social liberalism towards paleoconservatism - it's not just some random people coming and declaring their politics to be "libertarian" out of the blue. Nor is there any shortage of ex-libertarians in NRx circles, so it's clearly a common path, not unique to Thiel. Needless to say, the libertarian paradise described above could use something like Palantir to implement the "covenant".
- tomp 6y ago
  Can anyone point to some articles of how Palantir is abusing data? The reason I ask is, I also thought that it's "just supreme evil" until I listened to a podcast with Thiel (Dave Rubin podcast) recently... In it, he said that he started Palantir as an experiment, what can be done against organised crime/terrorism while respecting civil liberties and privacy. His argument was, that we do need to stop terrorism, because people (not HN crowd, but the public at large) are obviously not willing to compromise safety for privacy, so each terrorist attack results in privacy- & civil liberties-curtailing laws - so the question is, can we use data/ML/etc. to safeguard our society while preserving as much privacy & liberty as we can. But I've almost no real (and insider) info about Palantir to judge whether that's actually what the organisation is, 10 years or so later.
  - GekkePrutser 6y ago
    That's called PR and spin. Having said that I know nothing of Palantir, today was the first time I heard of it. But I would never ever believe anything a CEO says in the media that can't be validated. Their very job is setting the company in a positive light above all else. Especially when it comes to vague terms about company ideals that can't be proven. And 10 years is an eternity in IT. Remember Google had their motto "Don't be evil". Look how that turned out.
cratermoon 6y ago
Funny you should ask ... https://www.hsj.co.uk/story.aspx?storyCode=7027564 https://www.hsj.co.uk/story.aspx?storyCode=7027564
Traster 6y ago
I think this is actually quite innovative from the Uk government, take the existing NHS brand which has been a thorn in the side of the Conservatives for decades, co-opt the brand for dodgy spy software thta not only tarnishes the NHS brand, but also continues the UK government attempt at tracking every step every citizen takes.
- HenryBemis 6y ago
  I remember the desperate efforts of Theresa May to pass the snoopers charter for such a long time. And when she became a PM it was on the top of her list, and she did it. And now with that unethical filthy blob as a PM, I only expect the worse of him and his lackeys.. IMHO Apple and Google should have finished the job and "volunteer" to make the app as well as "donate" some of the storages for the data. Not that I trust US companies to respect anyone's privacy, or to the fact that a gag order stapled to a subpoena would give all that data to the "5 eyes"(now 14-15). I like my health as much as the next living human. But there are so many governments that will jump on this opportunity that it makes me want to avoid this app.
  - DanBC 6y ago
    > I remember the desperate efforts of Theresa May to pass the snoopers charter for such a long time. And when she became a PM it was on the top of her list, and she did it. RIPA was passed in the year 2000 under a Labour government when Jack Straw was Home Secretary.
    - HenryBemis 6y ago
      Are we talking about the same snoopers charter? From the independent's website dated 19/11/2016: The Snooper's Charter passed into law this week – say goodbye to your privacy https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/snoopers-charter-theresa-may-online-privacy-investigatory-powers-act-a7426461.html https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/snoopers-charter-theres...
- mantap 6y ago
  I don't think that's what they're doing. Intersection of people who care about privacy and people who wouldn't see through that tactic is tiny. They are using the NHS brand to get high adoption. Plus the UK govt slogan right now is literally "protect the NHS", the existing Conservative party opposition to the NHS is basically gone now, hopefully for good.
pjc50 6y ago
Of course it's bad, it's run by the intersection of incompetent charlatans and the lawful-evil surveillance state.
darrenf 6y ago
> Is the source code of these apps something that could be FOI requested There's no need for such a request. They themselves say "We intend to open source our codebase once the design is finalised" here: https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/report/nhs-covid-19-app-privacy-security-report https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/report/nhs-covid-19-app-privacy-secu...
- AJRF 6y ago
  This is why I mentioned the time frame - this goes into trial EDIT:TOMORROW* (still don't think that gives much time to audit the source code) in Isle of Wight, and ITV news said it is going out to the rest of the UK Thursday - so its being installed without any code being shown yet. https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-52442754 https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-52442754
  - eternalban 6y ago
    "Stay Clam and Work on Your Social Credit."
  - Lukas_Skywalker 6y ago
    Do you know where the app can be downloaded? I‘m interested in decompiling it.
- bigiain 6y ago
  Yeah, that what the Australian government said. That's what their own Privacy Impact Assessment document recommended. That's what they recently told us they were not going to do after all. Because security. :sigh:
dkdk8283 6y ago
Contact tracing is a wet dream for five-eyes. I don't even think it will even be effective given the anticipated number of cases.
- raskilinov 6y ago
  Perhaps not but would be useful for planning and prep for wave 2 onwards.
- cm2187 6y ago
  You don't think the 5 eyes don't get handed out mobile data location directly from the cariers? I am more concerned about a database that will inevitably be accessed by lots of researchers, and of course one will think it's a good idea to store a copy on a USB key or a public s3 bucket, etc. It the same story happening again and again and again...
  - eternalban 6y ago
    This is a legal framework, that is what is happening now. I noted this a while back in a flippant comment "Capitalism with Chinese Characteristics" (which didn't go down well :). A contact tracing system and a virus with n days of non-symptomatic incubation, and international borders. Let's think this through a bit. Of what benefit is to the traveler admitting/host country (H) to note on the "medical passport" issued by origin country (O)? Obviously, for this thing to even work on paper, countries need to exchange massive amount of information. The fact stands [challenge it!] that the socio-political regime being rolled out in guise of defense against Covid-19 and future viral friends aligns perfectly with a specific ideological position. It really was 'Nature's gift'. What used to be accomplished via violent revolution is being accomplished with 'scientific' efficiency and very little blood. Oh, that figurative blood in the streets of middle and lower classes? "The Virus does not discriminate!".
    - dchyrdvh 6y ago
      But imagine the new frontiers it opens! Countries would exchange and trade massive amounts of user data like oil. Want to participate in air travel? Better to sign treaties to buy tracing data, as without it your country won't be compliant with the international safety laws. I see trillions of new wealth being built there. On a serious note, this reminds me of a quote from one book: "the fourth round will be remarked by a fierce battle between materialistic and spiritual forces in humanity". We're like being subjected by a high voltage electrolysis now: those with moral are being dragged to the right and those without it - to the left.
DanBC 6y ago
The HSJ have a story, they agree with you. https://www.hsj.co.uk/technology-and-innovation/exclusive-wobbly-tracing-app-failed-clinical-safety-and-cyber-security-tests/7027564.article https://www.hsj.co.uk/technology-and-innovation/exclusive-wo... If this was written by NSHX I would install it, but given the dodgy provenance and lack of open source there's no way I'm going to install it.
jon889 6y ago
Btw the petition needs to on the parliament petitions site for a chance to have it debated
g_p 6y ago
It looks like you won't have to petition for it. According to https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/files/NHS-app-security-paper%20V0.1.pdf https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/files/NHS-app-security-paper%20V0.1...., "We intend to open source our codebase once the first release is finalised. The documentation accompanying that release will supersede this paper." and from https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/blog-post/security-behind-nhs-contact-tracing-app https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/blog-post/security-behind-nhs-contac..., "The Secretary of State has also committed to making the source code open source. That may not happen immediately on release because the fabulous NHSX development team are all working hard on getting the product ready. But it will happen." Sounds like there is an intention to deliver on the source. Bigger question is whether the server side is open sourced (as clearly that has limited value for verifying what is happening remotely).
- OJFord 6y ago
  > That may not happen immediately on release because the fabulous NHSX development team are all working hard on getting the product ready. But it will happen. That's just annoying nonsense though isn't it? There are reasonable (well 'ok they happen, whatever') causes for delay in open-sourcing something that didn't start out that way, but... Do any of them take more than seconds of developer time? They mean it 'may not happen immediately, because it's stuck in legal', surely?
  - hogFeast 6y ago
    The UK has passed the point of parody. If you want to justify any action, just say something about how great the NHS is before you do it.
    - iso1210 6y ago
      It's the equivelent of saying "9/11" in the US.
- maxden 6y ago
  Australia has deployed their app but haven't released the source code yet, and may not release all of it, so until it actually happens who knows. Also while the app on the phone has been released, the actual data wont be sent on to contract tracers until more testing and privacy policies are finalised.[0] [0]https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-02/coronavirus-app-currently-not-fully-operational/12208924 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-02/coronavirus-app-curre...

by AJRF 6y ago

jjgreen 6y ago

Given that Palantir is involved, I'd not touch it with a long stick https://tech.newstatesman.com/coronavirus/palantir-covid19-datastore-coronavirus https://tech.newstatesman.com/coronavirus/palantir-covid19-d...

AJRF 6y ago
Oh wow I had no idea Palintir was involved, I feel like I've finally turned in to the paranoid old fool that people laugh at, but this really upsets me to think of the millions of people who are going to install this without so much as a thought.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- uoaei 6y ago
  The thing about those paranoid old fools is that some of them are right. But where they are stuck at the level of trying to convince others to just "look with your eyes, see the truth right in front of you!" those with actual experience with praxis know it's much more fruitful to put your efforts toward political campaigns. Grassroots is a thing but it's always some weird combination of coercion and rhetoric about morals and ethics, because most people don't care so you have to make them care before the movement picks up steam.
  - EGreg 6y ago
    Talk is cheap. Have vegetarians converted a lot of people to give up meat? No, you need viable alternatives for people to switch. Like the Impossible Burger and so on. Until then talking won’t change anything. Not even Snowden level revelations would change it. Sure you can try to use government to fight government. Or... just build the alternative. We built the Web. We killed AOL MSN and Compuserve. Build open source, end to end encrypted, self healing and rebalancing networks that use a version of Kademlia DHT that removes IP addresses from each hop. And also run consensus in small groups about stuff. That’s the future right there. Trouble is, we are only seeing its infancy. I can think of about 2-3 projects that are pulling it off. And they have been working for years. PS: When this happens, user accounts and quotas will be replaced with crypto, and centralized servers and databases will be only by opt in. They wouldn’t automatically be a thing just because they provide the infrastructure. Infra should become completely commoditized. PPS: But. You’ll have to worry massivelu about botnets, sybil attacks and massive disinfo campaigns and reputationao attacks by sleeper AI bots. “Fun” times ahead ...
thelittleone 6y ago
Seems like many countries have contact tracing apps (Australia is one) are they all based on Palantir?
- incompatible 6y ago
  The Australian app is reportedly based on an open source app from Singapore. The Australian government said it would release the source for its own version in a couple of weeks. The code is GPL, if it's this one: https://github.com/OpenTrace-community https://github.com/OpenTrace-community.
TLightful 6y ago
Palantir involvement? Yup ... I'll take the coronavirus, please.
- pmiller2 6y ago
  I'll take 2 coronavirus.
taywrobel 6y ago
Having worked at Palantir, I’m curious which outdated misconceptions you’re still harboring? It’s a giant federated search engine... that’s about it. They don’t even hold any data themselves, it all stays on site with the customer.
- SSLy 6y ago
  I'll use an analogy: they might not be the warlords, but they are the weapon traffickers.
  - taywrobel 6y ago
    I disagree with that analogy. Palantir isn’t getting them more data. It’s helping them use it more effectively. The organizations already have all the data recorded. If you don’t like the data that organizations record, I’m right there with you, but demonizing the tools that allow them to access data more effectively is an absurd stance to take. Their system also does things like add an immutable audit log, or enforce requirements on how data can be accessed. Working with law enforcement, before Palantir there was nothing preventing an officer from looking up their ex husband or wife, or celebrities, or anyone at random. With it, there’s an audit trail of every search, and most of them need a case number as justification. Even then, certain searches would automatically get flagged for review. We can go back to giving people direct and unaudited SQL access if you’d like, but I’d prefer some more accountability, even if the downside is organizations being able to use data _they already have_ more effectively.
    - conanbatt 6y ago
      A rationalization at best. Facilitating an immoral act is active participation.
      - taywrobel 6y ago
        Do you buy things from amazon? They treat their warehouse employees terribly, so I hope not, lest you facilitate an immoral act. Do you ever use uber? They work to keep their drivers legally declared as contractors, despite treating them employees in all other regards. That’s pretty immoral, so I hope you don’t encourage it by supplying them with business.
iamnotarobotman 6y ago
P A L A N T I R. I would treat this app as advanced kleptographic malware after knowing that they're developing this app with the NHS to contact trace millions of people to 'stop the spread' on a centralised server.
disappearance 6y ago
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/12/uk-government-using-confidential-patient-data-in-coronavirus-response https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/12/uk-government-...
andrepd 6y ago
> Palantir is involved Holy shit, and I didn't think that this whole contact tracing bullshit could look even worse.
- EGreg 6y ago
  Can someone please explain to me how a “libertarian” like Peter Thiel could start and run one of the most anti libertarian companies? What are his beliefs, exactly? I mean besides “zero to one” and “competition is for losers, build a monopoly”? I wonder how much effect he had on Zuck early on. He was the first big check in. Seems it was a great match there.
  - IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago
    I will venture a guess. Principles dont matter if you dont have the money to put them into practice. If palantir is what it takes for him to fund/back a visionary company or leader that will create a truly freer society, then that investment was well worth it.
  - ljm 6y ago
    Because his wealth isn't enough and he can still insert himself into other policies to obtain more influence, more power, and more money? My question to you is why you care what Thiel thinks and why you're dissapointed. As far as I'm concerned, these guys are the lowest of the low and they only hold their position through gross exploitation. Nobody should be amassing this impossible wealth and seeking to gain more and these CEOs are basically economic despots to my mind.
  - int_19h 6y ago
    There's libertarians, and then there's libertarians. Thiel is a huge fan of Hans Hermann-Hoppe, who writes things like: "In a covenant concluded among proprietor and community tenants for the purpose of protecting their private property, no such thing as a right to free (unlimited) speech exists, not even to unlimited speech on one's own tenant-property. One may say innumerable things and promote almost any idea under the sun, but naturally no one is permitted to advocate ideas contrary to the very purpose of the covenant of preserving and protecting private property, such as democracy and communism. There can be no tolerance toward democrats and communists in a libertarian social order. They will have to be physically separated and expelled from society. Likewise, in a covenant founded for the purpose of protecting family and kin, there can be no tolerance toward those habitually promoting lifestyles incompatible with this goal. They – the advocates of alternative, non-family and kin-centered lifestyles such as, for instance, individual hedonism, parasitism, nature-environment worship, homosexuality, or communism – will have to be physically removed from society, too, if one is to maintain a libertarian order." This quote is from Hoppe's "Democracy: The God That Failed", which Thiel has referenced before. The overall thesis there is that economic freedom is the cornerstone of libertarianism, and it's fundamentally incompatible with democracy, so libertarians have to explore other options. It specifically promotes monarchy, on the basis that a monarch is more like a business owner with a vested long-term interest. You might argue that this isn't really libertarianism - indeed, many libertarians don't consider Hoppe to be one. This is basically proto-neo-reaction, at the point where it still hasn't explicitly rejected libertarianism altogether. But regardless of where you draw the line, this all is the evolution of Murray Rothbard's strain of libertarianism, after it moved away from social liberalism towards paleoconservatism - it's not just some random people coming and declaring their politics to be "libertarian" out of the blue. Nor is there any shortage of ex-libertarians in NRx circles, so it's clearly a common path, not unique to Thiel. Needless to say, the libertarian paradise described above could use something like Palantir to implement the "covenant".
tomp 6y ago
Can anyone point to some articles of how Palantir is abusing data? The reason I ask is, I also thought that it's "just supreme evil" until I listened to a podcast with Thiel (Dave Rubin podcast) recently... In it, he said that he started Palantir as an experiment, what can be done against organised crime/terrorism while respecting civil liberties and privacy. His argument was, that we do need to stop terrorism, because people (not HN crowd, but the public at large) are obviously not willing to compromise safety for privacy, so each terrorist attack results in privacy- & civil liberties-curtailing laws - so the question is, can we use data/ML/etc. to safeguard our society while preserving as much privacy & liberty as we can. But I've almost no real (and insider) info about Palantir to judge whether that's actually what the organisation is, 10 years or so later.
- GekkePrutser 6y ago
  That's called PR and spin. Having said that I know nothing of Palantir, today was the first time I heard of it. But I would never ever believe anything a CEO says in the media that can't be validated. Their very job is setting the company in a positive light above all else. Especially when it comes to vague terms about company ideals that can't be proven. And 10 years is an eternity in IT. Remember Google had their motto "Don't be evil". Look how that turned out.

cratermoon 6y ago

Funny you should ask ... https://www.hsj.co.uk/story.aspx?storyCode=7027564 https://www.hsj.co.uk/story.aspx?storyCode=7027564

Traster 6y ago

I think this is actually quite innovative from the Uk government, take the existing NHS brand which has been a thorn in the side of the Conservatives for decades, co-opt the brand for dodgy spy software thta not only tarnishes the NHS brand, but also continues the UK government attempt at tracking every step every citizen takes.

HenryBemis 6y ago
I remember the desperate efforts of Theresa May to pass the snoopers charter for such a long time. And when she became a PM it was on the top of her list, and she did it. And now with that unethical filthy blob as a PM, I only expect the worse of him and his lackeys.. IMHO Apple and Google should have finished the job and "volunteer" to make the app as well as "donate" some of the storages for the data. Not that I trust US companies to respect anyone's privacy, or to the fact that a gag order stapled to a subpoena would give all that data to the "5 eyes"(now 14-15). I like my health as much as the next living human. But there are so many governments that will jump on this opportunity that it makes me want to avoid this app.
- DanBC 6y ago
  > I remember the desperate efforts of Theresa May to pass the snoopers charter for such a long time. And when she became a PM it was on the top of her list, and she did it. RIPA was passed in the year 2000 under a Labour government when Jack Straw was Home Secretary.
  - HenryBemis 6y ago
    Are we talking about the same snoopers charter? From the independent's website dated 19/11/2016: The Snooper's Charter passed into law this week – say goodbye to your privacy https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/snoopers-charter-theresa-may-online-privacy-investigatory-powers-act-a7426461.html https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/snoopers-charter-theres...
mantap 6y ago
I don't think that's what they're doing. Intersection of people who care about privacy and people who wouldn't see through that tactic is tiny. They are using the NHS brand to get high adoption. Plus the UK govt slogan right now is literally "protect the NHS", the existing Conservative party opposition to the NHS is basically gone now, hopefully for good.

pjc50 6y ago

Of course it's bad, it's run by the intersection of incompetent charlatans and the lawful-evil surveillance state.

darrenf 6y ago

> Is the source code of these apps something that could be FOI requested There's no need for such a request. They themselves say "We intend to open source our codebase once the design is finalised" here: https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/report/nhs-covid-19-app-privacy-security-report https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/report/nhs-covid-19-app-privacy-secu...

AJRF 6y ago
This is why I mentioned the time frame - this goes into trial EDIT:TOMORROW* (still don't think that gives much time to audit the source code) in Isle of Wight, and ITV news said it is going out to the rest of the UK Thursday - so its being installed without any code being shown yet. https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-52442754 https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-52442754
- eternalban 6y ago
  "Stay Clam and Work on Your Social Credit."
- Lukas_Skywalker 6y ago
  Do you know where the app can be downloaded? I‘m interested in decompiling it.
bigiain 6y ago
Yeah, that what the Australian government said. That's what their own Privacy Impact Assessment document recommended. That's what they recently told us they were not going to do after all. Because security. :sigh:

dkdk8283 6y ago

Contact tracing is a wet dream for five-eyes. I don't even think it will even be effective given the anticipated number of cases.

raskilinov 6y ago
Perhaps not but would be useful for planning and prep for wave 2 onwards.
cm2187 6y ago
You don't think the 5 eyes don't get handed out mobile data location directly from the cariers? I am more concerned about a database that will inevitably be accessed by lots of researchers, and of course one will think it's a good idea to store a copy on a USB key or a public s3 bucket, etc. It the same story happening again and again and again...
- eternalban 6y ago
  This is a legal framework, that is what is happening now. I noted this a while back in a flippant comment "Capitalism with Chinese Characteristics" (which didn't go down well :). A contact tracing system and a virus with n days of non-symptomatic incubation, and international borders. Let's think this through a bit. Of what benefit is to the traveler admitting/host country (H) to note on the "medical passport" issued by origin country (O)? Obviously, for this thing to even work on paper, countries need to exchange massive amount of information. The fact stands [challenge it!] that the socio-political regime being rolled out in guise of defense against Covid-19 and future viral friends aligns perfectly with a specific ideological position. It really was 'Nature's gift'. What used to be accomplished via violent revolution is being accomplished with 'scientific' efficiency and very little blood. Oh, that figurative blood in the streets of middle and lower classes? "The Virus does not discriminate!".
  - dchyrdvh 6y ago
    But imagine the new frontiers it opens! Countries would exchange and trade massive amounts of user data like oil. Want to participate in air travel? Better to sign treaties to buy tracing data, as without it your country won't be compliant with the international safety laws. I see trillions of new wealth being built there. On a serious note, this reminds me of a quote from one book: "the fourth round will be remarked by a fierce battle between materialistic and spiritual forces in humanity". We're like being subjected by a high voltage electrolysis now: those with moral are being dragged to the right and those without it - to the left.

DanBC 6y ago

The HSJ have a story, they agree with you. https://www.hsj.co.uk/technology-and-innovation/exclusive-wobbly-tracing-app-failed-clinical-safety-and-cyber-security-tests/7027564.article https://www.hsj.co.uk/technology-and-innovation/exclusive-wo... If this was written by NSHX I would install it, but given the dodgy provenance and lack of open source there's no way I'm going to install it.

jon889 6y ago

Btw the petition needs to on the parliament petitions site for a chance to have it debated

g_p 6y ago

It looks like you won't have to petition for it. According to https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/files/NHS-app-security-paper%20V0.1.pdf https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/files/NHS-app-security-paper%20V0.1...., "We intend to open source our codebase once the first release is finalised. The documentation accompanying that release will supersede this paper." and from https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/blog-post/security-behind-nhs-contact-tracing-app https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/blog-post/security-behind-nhs-contac..., "The Secretary of State has also committed to making the source code open source. That may not happen immediately on release because the fabulous NHSX development team are all working hard on getting the product ready. But it will happen." Sounds like there is an intention to deliver on the source. Bigger question is whether the server side is open sourced (as clearly that has limited value for verifying what is happening remotely).

OJFord 6y ago
> That may not happen immediately on release because the fabulous NHSX development team are all working hard on getting the product ready. But it will happen. That's just annoying nonsense though isn't it? There are reasonable (well 'ok they happen, whatever') causes for delay in open-sourcing something that didn't start out that way, but... Do any of them take more than seconds of developer time? They mean it 'may not happen immediately, because it's stuck in legal', surely?
- hogFeast 6y ago
  The UK has passed the point of parody. If you want to justify any action, just say something about how great the NHS is before you do it.
  - iso1210 6y ago
    It's the equivelent of saying "9/11" in the US.
maxden 6y ago
Australia has deployed their app but haven't released the source code yet, and may not release all of it, so until it actually happens who knows. Also while the app on the phone has been released, the actual data wont be sent on to contract tracers until more testing and privacy policies are finalised.[0] [0]https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-02/coronavirus-app-currently-not-fully-operational/12208924 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-02/coronavirus-app-curre...