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It does not say anything about loosing your pasport. I wonder what that might do. I am assuming they at least cover the case of replacing your pasport when it e

by Gys 6y ago

It does not say anything about loosing your pasport. I wonder what that might do. I am assuming they at least cover the case of replacing your pasport when it expires as it is a known date.

arcticbull 6y ago
Just like any other cryptocurrency: you lose your keys, you lose your coins, end of story. That's one of the many reasons crypto is utterly worthless.
- elil17 6y ago
  I mean, you also lose your money if you lose paper bills. Makes it difficult to use as a store of value, but not as a medium of exchange.
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    It's possible to store your paper somewhere that's not the case. It's not possible to do the same with crypto. There is no workaround for crypto -- intentionally so. Not to mention, mediums of exchange aren't supposed to fluctuate 10% in value in minutes, for reasons that should be immediately obvious, and it certainly shouldn't be priced in USDT / Tether Funbux.
    - elil17 6y ago
      Anywhere you can store a dollar bill, I can store a piece of paper with my private key written on it. Yes, it absolutely is rendered less useful by the fluctuation of exchange rate.
      - arcticbull 6y ago
        Not in a real bank, which is insured by the FDIC so in the event it becomes insolvent I get my money back. Unlike an exchange where I get a big ol' SFYL.
        mopsi 6y ago
        Banks have vaults and offer storage services for important documents, including encryption keys. Retrieval difficulties etc can be dealt with by having multiple copies stored in different places. Paper money is no different from keys. If you burn either of them, they're gone for good, but that doesn't stop them from being useful if you use reasonable precautions.
        arcticbull 6y ago
        Paper money can be converted to digital, insured, replaceable currency by being deposited in a bank. Cryptocurrency cannot.
        mopsi 6y ago
        So can cryptocurrencies be converted. Each form of storage comes with its upsides and downsides. During the Cypriot banking crisis of 2012-13, 47.5% of savings over 100 000 EUR were seized by the government. A 200 000 EUR deposit became a 152 500 EUR deposit overnight.
        arcticbull 6y ago
        I think you're not following what I'm saying but I'll dive into the two aspects here: (1) You can convert cryptocurrencies but that doesn't change the fact your key remains a single point of failure, or your exchange's key remains a single point of failure. This is as designed. There is no remedy. It is intentional. It does not apply to an FDIC insured bank account. (2) During the MtGox crisis and the QuadrigaCX [1] crisis (among many, many, many others), 100% of deposits disappeared overnight with zero recourse (aka SFYL). While neither this nor the Cypriot banking crisis are ideal, I know which one I'd prefer to have gone through. Not to mention at the end QuadrigaCX sent $400,000 on crypto to their dead founder's wallet which is just thrown in with the rest of the pool of lost coins. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/dantedisparte/2019/02/05/quadrigacx-how-to-lose-140-million-in-an-instant/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/dantedisparte/2019/02/05/quadri...
- lukifer 6y ago
  It's no different than bearer bonds [1]. "Utterly worthless" is a little strong; while for 99% of users, it's arguably inferior to a banking authority than can restore your assets in the event of fraud, there are those that would consider this a feature rather than a bug, since it also means that a government or bank can't seize your assets either (given sufficient precautions, etc). It's a tradeoff, like so many things. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bearer_bond https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bearer_bond
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    > It's arguably inferior to a banking authority than can restore your assets in the event of fraud, there are those that would consider this a feature rather than a bug, since it also means that a government or bank can't seize your assets either (given sufficient precautions, etc). And they would be wrong, since all crypto is priced in USDT which is a fiction brought to you by the Bitfinex team. Obviously the government should be able to seize funds, because you know, crimes. Somehow they seem to actually manage to seize bitcoin from time to time, too. So I'm not really even sure that's an argument. I guess if you lose it there's nothing to seize, like 20% of BTC so far.
    - lukifer 6y ago
      Yes, it takes some precautions to make crypto unseizable (sufficient encryption and/or brainwallets). Even then, governments always have the "$5 wrench" option, in which they hold you in contempt and jail you for not turning over a password they believe you have. Still, for better or worse, a crypto-asset is a tool that can be used to store value that is purely under your control. Whether that's a good thing, or even should be a socially permissible thing, is certainly an open question.
  - cortesoft 6y ago
    Yeah, and bearer bonds no longer exist because of those problems.
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    From the wiki: "Bearer bonds have historically been the financial instrument of choice for money laundering, tax evasion, and concealed business transactions in general" Ah good! That, but digital. Just what the world needed. I almost feel like you made my case just there.
elil17 6y ago
I downloaded the app and your key is different from your passport. Verifying your passport just adds your key to the list of keys that can vote and get UBI payouts. Your passport confirms its expiration date. After your passport expires, you stop getting UBI.

by Gys 6y ago

It does not say anything about loosing your pasport. I wonder what that might do. I am assuming they at least cover the case of replacing your pasport when it expires as it is a known date.

arcticbull 6y ago

Just like any other cryptocurrency: you lose your keys, you lose your coins, end of story. That's one of the many reasons crypto is utterly worthless.

elil17 6y ago
I mean, you also lose your money if you lose paper bills. Makes it difficult to use as a store of value, but not as a medium of exchange.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  It's possible to store your paper somewhere that's not the case. It's not possible to do the same with crypto. There is no workaround for crypto -- intentionally so. Not to mention, mediums of exchange aren't supposed to fluctuate 10% in value in minutes, for reasons that should be immediately obvious, and it certainly shouldn't be priced in USDT / Tether Funbux.
  - elil17 6y ago
    Anywhere you can store a dollar bill, I can store a piece of paper with my private key written on it. Yes, it absolutely is rendered less useful by the fluctuation of exchange rate.
    - arcticbull 6y ago
      Not in a real bank, which is insured by the FDIC so in the event it becomes insolvent I get my money back. Unlike an exchange where I get a big ol' SFYL.
      - mopsi 6y ago
        Banks have vaults and offer storage services for important documents, including encryption keys. Retrieval difficulties etc can be dealt with by having multiple copies stored in different places. Paper money is no different from keys. If you burn either of them, they're gone for good, but that doesn't stop them from being useful if you use reasonable precautions.
        arcticbull 6y ago
        Paper money can be converted to digital, insured, replaceable currency by being deposited in a bank. Cryptocurrency cannot.
        mopsi 6y ago
        So can cryptocurrencies be converted. Each form of storage comes with its upsides and downsides. During the Cypriot banking crisis of 2012-13, 47.5% of savings over 100 000 EUR were seized by the government. A 200 000 EUR deposit became a 152 500 EUR deposit overnight.
        arcticbull 6y ago
        I think you're not following what I'm saying but I'll dive into the two aspects here: (1) You can convert cryptocurrencies but that doesn't change the fact your key remains a single point of failure, or your exchange's key remains a single point of failure. This is as designed. There is no remedy. It is intentional. It does not apply to an FDIC insured bank account. (2) During the MtGox crisis and the QuadrigaCX [1] crisis (among many, many, many others), 100% of deposits disappeared overnight with zero recourse (aka SFYL). While neither this nor the Cypriot banking crisis are ideal, I know which one I'd prefer to have gone through. Not to mention at the end QuadrigaCX sent $400,000 on crypto to their dead founder's wallet which is just thrown in with the rest of the pool of lost coins. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/dantedisparte/2019/02/05/quadrigacx-how-to-lose-140-million-in-an-instant/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/dantedisparte/2019/02/05/quadri...
lukifer 6y ago
It's no different than bearer bonds [1]. "Utterly worthless" is a little strong; while for 99% of users, it's arguably inferior to a banking authority than can restore your assets in the event of fraud, there are those that would consider this a feature rather than a bug, since it also means that a government or bank can't seize your assets either (given sufficient precautions, etc). It's a tradeoff, like so many things. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bearer_bond https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bearer_bond
- arcticbull 6y ago
  > It's arguably inferior to a banking authority than can restore your assets in the event of fraud, there are those that would consider this a feature rather than a bug, since it also means that a government or bank can't seize your assets either (given sufficient precautions, etc). And they would be wrong, since all crypto is priced in USDT which is a fiction brought to you by the Bitfinex team. Obviously the government should be able to seize funds, because you know, crimes. Somehow they seem to actually manage to seize bitcoin from time to time, too. So I'm not really even sure that's an argument. I guess if you lose it there's nothing to seize, like 20% of BTC so far.
  - lukifer 6y ago
    Yes, it takes some precautions to make crypto unseizable (sufficient encryption and/or brainwallets). Even then, governments always have the "$5 wrench" option, in which they hold you in contempt and jail you for not turning over a password they believe you have. Still, for better or worse, a crypto-asset is a tool that can be used to store value that is purely under your control. Whether that's a good thing, or even should be a socially permissible thing, is certainly an open question.
- cortesoft 6y ago
  Yeah, and bearer bonds no longer exist because of those problems.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  From the wiki: "Bearer bonds have historically been the financial instrument of choice for money laundering, tax evasion, and concealed business transactions in general" Ah good! That, but digital. Just what the world needed. I almost feel like you made my case just there.

elil17 6y ago

I downloaded the app and your key is different from your passport. Verifying your passport just adds your key to the list of keys that can vote and get UBI payouts. Your passport confirms its expiration date. After your passport expires, you stop getting UBI.