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> Just compare the incentives for both parts to be dishonest and you have your answer. What would workers gain from being dishonest except the risk of being fir

> Just compare the incentives for both parts to be dishonest and you have your answer. What would workers gain from being dishonest except the risk of being fired or retaliated upon? Pay raises, more time off, better benefits. A newly hired employee has very little to lose by supporting unionization. >And why, if organizers are lying, can't Amazon just disprove them by showing to the public their perfect working conditions? Because when Amazon shows good conditions, everyone says that it's a manufactured scenario or just an anecdote. >Finally, isn't it a natural instinct to side with the weaker element in a fight? Which is precisely what organizers want to exploit with publicity that could very easily be taking things out of context. A union organizer has almost nothing to lose by massively exaggerating. >Does Amazon really need your support, or are the workers one paycheck away from homelessness in need of it? Depends on whether or not you care about being manipulated into supporting something that could be a lie. It's not even "support" of Amazon, it's just questioning of the accounting of one side of a debate.

snotrockets 6y ago
> Pay raises, more time off, better benefits. And those are bad because? > A newly hired employee has very little to lose by supporting unionization. And yet, most don't. The mind boggles.
- stretchwithme 6y ago
  Only bad for the party they are being extorted from. Which is essentially what happens when a monopoly over your labor supply is in place.
  - pde3 6y ago
    Many workers experience monopsony for their labor for reasons that might not make sense to you (switching costs, rational risk aversion, fallible human psychology). A union on their side just levels the playing field. Empirically, societies that support monopoly bargaining by unions (and structurally encourage creative thinking and incentive alignment between unions and employers) have become much better places for their worst-off cohorts. Possibly not better if you're a smart and talented entrepreneur or highly skilled technologist; parts of the US are clearly great for that. But you may have to step over homeless people to get to work.
    - toasterlovin 6y ago
      > Many workers experience monopsony for their labor for reasons that might not make sense to you (switching costs, rational risk aversion, fallible human psychology) Both sides face similar issues related to terminating their mutually agreed to relationship.
- nearbuy 6y ago
  > And those are bad because? I'm not against these things for warehouse workers at all, but just to answer your question, potential downsides include: 1. The money has to come from somewhere. Since Amazon keeps fairly small profit, this would likely come from passing costs on to consumers, and reducing Amazon's investment in future growth, which ultimately costs their future consumers. This increases cost of living for non-Amazon workers, and since Amazon is a good source of cheap items, it may disproportionately burden poorer people. 2. Where I am, Indeed.com says Amazon warehouse workers are paid slightly above average ($16/hour). If they were paid significantly above average, it can make it hard for small businesses to keep their workers.
- toasterlovin 6y ago
  > > Pay raises, more time off, better benefits. > And those are bad because? They're not bad. But them being good for workers is not an argument for why workers should receive them.

snotrockets 6y ago

> Pay raises, more time off, better benefits. And those are bad because? > A newly hired employee has very little to lose by supporting unionization. And yet, most don't. The mind boggles.

stretchwithme 6y ago
Only bad for the party they are being extorted from. Which is essentially what happens when a monopoly over your labor supply is in place.
- pde3 6y ago
  Many workers experience monopsony for their labor for reasons that might not make sense to you (switching costs, rational risk aversion, fallible human psychology). A union on their side just levels the playing field. Empirically, societies that support monopoly bargaining by unions (and structurally encourage creative thinking and incentive alignment between unions and employers) have become much better places for their worst-off cohorts. Possibly not better if you're a smart and talented entrepreneur or highly skilled technologist; parts of the US are clearly great for that. But you may have to step over homeless people to get to work.
  - toasterlovin 6y ago
    > Many workers experience monopsony for their labor for reasons that might not make sense to you (switching costs, rational risk aversion, fallible human psychology) Both sides face similar issues related to terminating their mutually agreed to relationship.
nearbuy 6y ago
> And those are bad because? I'm not against these things for warehouse workers at all, but just to answer your question, potential downsides include: 1. The money has to come from somewhere. Since Amazon keeps fairly small profit, this would likely come from passing costs on to consumers, and reducing Amazon's investment in future growth, which ultimately costs their future consumers. This increases cost of living for non-Amazon workers, and since Amazon is a good source of cheap items, it may disproportionately burden poorer people. 2. Where I am, Indeed.com says Amazon warehouse workers are paid slightly above average ($16/hour). If they were paid significantly above average, it can make it hard for small businesses to keep their workers.
toasterlovin 6y ago
> > Pay raises, more time off, better benefits. > And those are bad because? They're not bad. But them being good for workers is not an argument for why workers should receive them.