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Why would the workers organize and risk their careers without just cause? He mentions petitions with thousands of signatures. Are all of those people just…I me

by tyre 7y ago

Why would the workers organize and risk their careers without just cause? He mentions petitions with thousands of signatures. Are all of those people just…I mean, what? If they were lying, then Amazon could easily come out and say, "They're asking for regular breaks every four hours and we literally give them that. They ask for PPE and every employee is given X, Y, Z. They want us to reduce our carbon footprint by 10%, here is an independent audit showing 12% reduction." (etc.) In situations of extreme power imbalance, it's not unreasonable to default trust the person not in power who is taking far greater risk. Sometimes you'll be wrong! But the burden of proof is on people in power.

twomoretime 7y ago
>why would the workers organize and risk their careers without just cause Warehouse stocking is not a career. Most of these people are hourly workers with little to lose. You can't apply the same standards to white, blue, and no collar workers because the nature of both the work, the people, and the culture are totally different. If that statement shocks or offends you, I encourage you to take a temporary job at a place like Walmart or visit an oil rig and experience the differences yourself.
- jethro_tell 7y ago
  As I understand it, the 8000 people that signed the petition of support to organize were not hourly workers but corporate white collar workers with high pay that have issues with climate response and worker protections for blue collar workers. Like Tim, the guy who wrote this essay.
  - yters 7y ago
    Very interesting. Hard data on all this would be much more valuable than anecdotes and presumption that those with power are always the evil ones. Corporations are at least some kind of good. Otherwise, we would need to all form our own little businesses, and have everyone redo a whole lot of common tasks. Corporations are the economy's approach to DRY.
    - rrix2 7y ago
      > Very interesting. Hard data on all this would be much more valuable than anecdotes and presumption that those with power are always the evil ones. The signatory names and titles are available publicly: https://medium.com/@amazonemployeesclimatejustice/public-letter-to-jeff-bezos-and-the-amazon-board-of-directors-82a8405f5e38 https://medium.com/@amazonemployeesclimatejustice/public-let...
      - yters 7y ago
        Thanks! It does substantiate the point these are mostly white collar workers complaining about their environment agenda. I saw a single bullet about work conditions, and this was couched in a context about not docking pay if there are big storms that wipe out operations. Definitely not a corporation mistreating its employees. I don't know why this is portrayed as such. If employees want to force their employer to follow some agenda the employer does not agree with, I don't see a problem with the corporation firing the employees.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      What hard data do you need? The petition is public, and the number of people who signed it is as hard as you're going to get!
      - yters 7y ago
        Hard data on all the evil that Amazon is presumably doing. What are all these evil things that makes Amazon so horrible?
- throwaway2048 7y ago
  Everyone deserves a safe (as possible) job with a living wage, that is not something only white collar workers who went to university are entitled to.
  - paypalcust83 7y ago
    Meat packing and agriculture jobs in the US are presently incredibly dangerous, under-regulated (wink-wink regulated large corporations who have immense political power through lobbyists and trade PACs), and often done by undocumented persons who cannot get compensation if they are maimed or killed. Interestingly, these industries often advertise wages in Central and South American countries' newspaper to encourage migration, legal and otherwise.
  - AdrianB1 7y ago
    Nobody just deserve it, everyone has to find one and keep it. You never get anything in life because "you deserve it and the Universe has to give it to you", not in this Universe.
    - wpietri 7y ago
      It's true that nobody gets something from the universe just because they deserve it. Which is why for several thousand years humans have grouped up into civilized societies where we can construct environments that better match how we think things should work. So that people can get what they deserve. Since we're not talking about somebody adrift in interstellar space, your argument makes less sense. Instead you have to argue some variant on a) not everybody deserves a reasonably safe job, or b) people do deserve that but we as a society can't afford it. (I don't think either of those is true, but at least they'd make sense.)
      - AdrianB1 7y ago
        You just served a false dilemma. There are also options c and d and more. Even having a society does not make wonders: we don't have a cure for cancer, we don't have a vaccine for Covid, having a functional society does not mean you can obtain everything, including safe jobs and decent lives, especially when the definitions of safe and decent are moving targets: versus 200 years ago we are living an utopia of safe jobs and decent lives. Just think logical, not only emotional.
- wk_end 7y ago
  How on Earth can you think that low-skill hourly workers in America have "little to lose" by jeopardizing their livelihoods? That's precisely what ensures that they have so much to lose. Maybe you or I can lose our jobs, survive on savings for a good while, and easily find another role; they can't.
  - eanzenberg 7y ago
    ? Under the CARES act, low-wage workers "earn" more on unemployment than from working.
    - ZekeSulastin 7y ago
      That depends on whether or not their individual state is effectively processing both regular unemployment and the federal side effectively and whether or not the state side is being contested. Also, that ends in July currently whereas there have been complaints about Amazon warehouses (and other jobs) well before the pandemic.
    - uoaei 7y ago
      You've been reading too much Breitbart

by tyre 7y ago

twomoretime 7y ago

>why would the workers organize and risk their careers without just cause Warehouse stocking is not a career. Most of these people are hourly workers with little to lose. You can't apply the same standards to white, blue, and no collar workers because the nature of both the work, the people, and the culture are totally different. If that statement shocks or offends you, I encourage you to take a temporary job at a place like Walmart or visit an oil rig and experience the differences yourself.

jethro_tell 7y ago
As I understand it, the 8000 people that signed the petition of support to organize were not hourly workers but corporate white collar workers with high pay that have issues with climate response and worker protections for blue collar workers. Like Tim, the guy who wrote this essay.
- yters 7y ago
  Very interesting. Hard data on all this would be much more valuable than anecdotes and presumption that those with power are always the evil ones. Corporations are at least some kind of good. Otherwise, we would need to all form our own little businesses, and have everyone redo a whole lot of common tasks. Corporations are the economy's approach to DRY.
  - rrix2 7y ago
    > Very interesting. Hard data on all this would be much more valuable than anecdotes and presumption that those with power are always the evil ones. The signatory names and titles are available publicly: https://medium.com/@amazonemployeesclimatejustice/public-letter-to-jeff-bezos-and-the-amazon-board-of-directors-82a8405f5e38 https://medium.com/@amazonemployeesclimatejustice/public-let...
    - yters 7y ago
      Thanks! It does substantiate the point these are mostly white collar workers complaining about their environment agenda. I saw a single bullet about work conditions, and this was couched in a context about not docking pay if there are big storms that wipe out operations. Definitely not a corporation mistreating its employees. I don't know why this is portrayed as such. If employees want to force their employer to follow some agenda the employer does not agree with, I don't see a problem with the corporation firing the employees.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    What hard data do you need? The petition is public, and the number of people who signed it is as hard as you're going to get!
    - yters 7y ago
      Hard data on all the evil that Amazon is presumably doing. What are all these evil things that makes Amazon so horrible?
throwaway2048 7y ago
Everyone deserves a safe (as possible) job with a living wage, that is not something only white collar workers who went to university are entitled to.
- paypalcust83 7y ago
  Meat packing and agriculture jobs in the US are presently incredibly dangerous, under-regulated (wink-wink regulated large corporations who have immense political power through lobbyists and trade PACs), and often done by undocumented persons who cannot get compensation if they are maimed or killed. Interestingly, these industries often advertise wages in Central and South American countries' newspaper to encourage migration, legal and otherwise.
- AdrianB1 7y ago
  Nobody just deserve it, everyone has to find one and keep it. You never get anything in life because "you deserve it and the Universe has to give it to you", not in this Universe.
  - wpietri 7y ago
    It's true that nobody gets something from the universe just because they deserve it. Which is why for several thousand years humans have grouped up into civilized societies where we can construct environments that better match how we think things should work. So that people can get what they deserve. Since we're not talking about somebody adrift in interstellar space, your argument makes less sense. Instead you have to argue some variant on a) not everybody deserves a reasonably safe job, or b) people do deserve that but we as a society can't afford it. (I don't think either of those is true, but at least they'd make sense.)
    - AdrianB1 7y ago
      You just served a false dilemma. There are also options c and d and more. Even having a society does not make wonders: we don't have a cure for cancer, we don't have a vaccine for Covid, having a functional society does not mean you can obtain everything, including safe jobs and decent lives, especially when the definitions of safe and decent are moving targets: versus 200 years ago we are living an utopia of safe jobs and decent lives. Just think logical, not only emotional.
wk_end 7y ago
How on Earth can you think that low-skill hourly workers in America have "little to lose" by jeopardizing their livelihoods? That's precisely what ensures that they have so much to lose. Maybe you or I can lose our jobs, survive on savings for a good while, and easily find another role; they can't.
- eanzenberg 7y ago
  ? Under the CARES act, low-wage workers "earn" more on unemployment than from working.
  - ZekeSulastin 7y ago
    That depends on whether or not their individual state is effectively processing both regular unemployment and the federal side effectively and whether or not the state side is being contested. Also, that ends in July currently whereas there have been complaints about Amazon warehouses (and other jobs) well before the pandemic.
  - uoaei 7y ago
    You've been reading too much Breitbart