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My usual "tail" is not tail -f, but tail -n 100. In fact, I jump around a ton doing tails and heads with varying linecounts, and if it gets unweildy even after

My usual "tail" is not tail -f, but tail -n 100. In fact, I jump around a ton doing tails and heads with varying linecounts, and if it gets unweildy even after all of that, that's when I pipe to less and look at it. My major justification is I use tail and head constantly, every single day, and it's rarely on system logging. It's java logs, it's python logs, it's rust logs. I'm not going to be giving up tail or head any time soon. Now I have to type "journalctl --help" every single time I want to look at a system or daemon log, which isn't super common, and when I do need to I'm already frustrated something isn't working. Put another way, this is the exact WORST time to throw up more roadblocks over something. That's why I assert it should be logged twice, and for those who don't want it to be chewing up diskspace or want to relocate it, well, that's where you can configure it. I just want my old log files back in their old locations without forcing me to sift through man pages when all I really want to do is figure out why the fucking bluetooth keeps dropping connection. I understand why others see this as a great step forward but it sounds more like the windows registry and event viewer to me than it does the configuration file and log file approach I adore from my unix systems. I'm sure the registry and event viewer has a lot of devoted fans as well; the difference is it's been there for most of my life (or at least, the parts where I was doing more than playing X-Wing vs Tie Fighter), which is why I mostly just wandered away. I'm not a sysadmin, I don't try to be and I don't want to be, and it seems like systemd is hellbent on forcing me to be one whether I want to be or not and I am so not here for it.

shawnz 6y ago
Then it's "journalctl -n 100". Or "journalctl | less". > Now I have to type "journalctl --help" every single time I want to look at a system or daemon log, which isn't super common, and when I do need to I'm already frustrated something isn't working. I don't think that keeping users from ever having to learn anything new is a good justification for doing things a particular way. > I'm not a sysadmin, I don't try to be and I don't want to be, and it seems like systemd is hellbent on forcing me to be one Personally I don't understand this sentiment. As a user I have found that systemd has made using Linux systems much simpler for me. Yes, I had to read a manual, but I don't think that is anything like "forcing me to be a sysadmin". Didn't you have to read the manual for tail at some point in the past?
- isbjorn16 6y ago
  Nope, tail is such a trivially easy program to use. There's like 2 switches that matter to me, one of which requires a value as well. Keeping things super simple is a really important thing, and I guess I had taken it for granted that everyone using gnu-style tools would be on the same wavelength - for the most part, at any rate. FWIW, I can't bear to read the awk or sed man pages either. I fundamentally agree with you; learning something new is not necessarily a bad thing. Forcing you to learn something when you're actively trying to figure something utterly unrelated out is where it gets dicey. Not everyone wants to do the "Malcom in the Middle Hal Changing a Lightbulb" routine when there's already a Very Important Thing to Fix. The problem with systemd is that it took something that already worked perfectly fine for my needs and said "let's overengineer the everloving pants out of this! get in the car grandpa, it's time to roll!" I didn't ask for it, I have WAY more important (to me!) things to do, and it's actively running interference with that. Surely you can see that level of frustration, right? Put another way, I'm sure it's a LOVELY bikeshed for some. Some people have wanted a bikeshed this fantastic and wonderful for a long time, and they will use this bikeshed with great joy daily. Meanwhile, every time I'm trying to get something I actually care about done, it's like pulling teeth. Maybe I'm using it wrong, and I'll be the first to admit I have the patience of a toddler when it comes to reading the man pages. What I can DEFINITELY say, though, is that if systemd never existed my quality of life would be doubtless better than it does with it existing. That's really the only metric I need. Like I said: definitely in old man yells at cloud territory, maybe crossed with a dash of lazy man commits to further laziness and myopic man can't see the forest for the trees. I'm not saying you are bad to like systemd, I'm saying that it made changes I didn't ask for, it didn't do it in a way that was painless and approachable without a time commitment, and I've yet to be satisfactorily convinced that the value proposition is worth it - not for my uses, at any rate.

shawnz 6y ago

Then it's "journalctl -n 100". Or "journalctl | less". > Now I have to type "journalctl --help" every single time I want to look at a system or daemon log, which isn't super common, and when I do need to I'm already frustrated something isn't working. I don't think that keeping users from ever having to learn anything new is a good justification for doing things a particular way. > I'm not a sysadmin, I don't try to be and I don't want to be, and it seems like systemd is hellbent on forcing me to be one Personally I don't understand this sentiment. As a user I have found that systemd has made using Linux systems much simpler for me. Yes, I had to read a manual, but I don't think that is anything like "forcing me to be a sysadmin". Didn't you have to read the manual for tail at some point in the past?

isbjorn16 6y ago
Nope, tail is such a trivially easy program to use. There's like 2 switches that matter to me, one of which requires a value as well. Keeping things super simple is a really important thing, and I guess I had taken it for granted that everyone using gnu-style tools would be on the same wavelength - for the most part, at any rate. FWIW, I can't bear to read the awk or sed man pages either. I fundamentally agree with you; learning something new is not necessarily a bad thing. Forcing you to learn something when you're actively trying to figure something utterly unrelated out is where it gets dicey. Not everyone wants to do the "Malcom in the Middle Hal Changing a Lightbulb" routine when there's already a Very Important Thing to Fix. The problem with systemd is that it took something that already worked perfectly fine for my needs and said "let's overengineer the everloving pants out of this! get in the car grandpa, it's time to roll!" I didn't ask for it, I have WAY more important (to me!) things to do, and it's actively running interference with that. Surely you can see that level of frustration, right? Put another way, I'm sure it's a LOVELY bikeshed for some. Some people have wanted a bikeshed this fantastic and wonderful for a long time, and they will use this bikeshed with great joy daily. Meanwhile, every time I'm trying to get something I actually care about done, it's like pulling teeth. Maybe I'm using it wrong, and I'll be the first to admit I have the patience of a toddler when it comes to reading the man pages. What I can DEFINITELY say, though, is that if systemd never existed my quality of life would be doubtless better than it does with it existing. That's really the only metric I need. Like I said: definitely in old man yells at cloud territory, maybe crossed with a dash of lazy man commits to further laziness and myopic man can't see the forest for the trees. I'm not saying you are bad to like systemd, I'm saying that it made changes I didn't ask for, it didn't do it in a way that was painless and approachable without a time commitment, and I've yet to be satisfactorily convinced that the value proposition is worth it - not for my uses, at any rate.