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Have you considered the possibility that Amazon actually treats their workers okay and that it's the organizers are dishonest? Why does the presumption of evil

Have you considered the possibility that Amazon actually treats their workers okay and that it's the organizers are dishonest? Why does the presumption of evil only go in one direction?

untog 6y ago
What would the organisers have to gain from lying about bad conditions in their warehouses? It’s very obvious what Amazon gains in the reverse. The organisers are putting their livelihoods on the line, you’d have to imagine they have a good reason for doing so.
60secz 6y ago
* cough * It goes on to give tips to managers for spotting union activity. “Make it a point to regularly talk to associates in the break room. This will help protect you from accusations that you were only in the break room to spy on pro union associates,” the video says. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/22/how-amazon-is-fighting-back-against-workers-efforts-to-unionize.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/22/how-amazon-is-fighting-back-... On internal company email lists and chat groups on Thursday and Friday that Recode viewed, Amazon white-collar workers expressed dismay over a report from Vice News that the company’s top lawyer had referred to a recently fired warehouse worker as “not smart, or articulate” and implied that executives should use that to help squelch worker unionization efforts. https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/4/5/21206385/amazon-fired-warehouse-worker-christian-smalls-employee-backlash-david-zapolsky-coronavirus https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/4/5/21206385/amazon-fired-wa...
- product50 6y ago
  Stop quoting Vox as if they are a reliable news source. They are the ones who mocked tech workers initially for taking COVID seriously: https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/2/13/21128209/coronavirus-fears-contagion-how-infection-spreads https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/2/13/21128209/coronavirus-fe...
  - chipotle_coyote 6y ago
    At risk at piling on to something that's already being downvoted, this is an extremely facile take. Nothing in the article you linked was "mocking" tech workers for being worried in mid-February. The word you are looking for is "reporting" on that situation, and also including in that report that officials at that time, in mid-February, said that while there was "always a risk" that these fears were likely overblown. Dragging Vox for accurately reporting what many experts said at the time is dragging them for not being prescient enough to know that the experts were wrong. And to top it all off, that's something that Vox is actively concerned about, given that the last episode of the Ezra Klein Show was a conversation with NYT writer Charlie Warzel about the media's response to the pandemic and how difficult it is to handle this sort of situation.
    - product50 6y ago
      Yeah - keep on reading Vox and feel enlightened. You literally are the reason why poor publications like Vox get a free pass. Here, if you don't believe me, read this thread and check yourself (https://twitter.com/balajis/status/1228447944287932416?s=20 https://twitter.com/balajis/status/1228447944287932416?s=20). And don't tell me now that Balaji is not trustworthy. He is 100x more trustworthy than a random HN user like you.
      - chipotle_coyote 6y ago
        Well, it's sure great that a random HN user like you vouches for him.
- eanzenberg 6y ago
  There is no faster way to stagnate an industry and destroy innovation than by workers unionizing. Enjoy more outsourcing of jobs than before.
  - arez 6y ago
    the entire german country would like to have a word with you
    - jcims 6y ago
      If my two late model Audis are any testament, German engineering and standards of quality are headed straight for the shitter. Get your extended warranties people lol
  - iso947 6y ago
    Maybe it would increase warehouse costs and thus increase automation. That’s good.
    - jshevek 6y ago
      That outcome would be good for most of society, but not for the very workers who are the subject of the concerns expressed in this thread.
  - amphibian87 6y ago
    This is a classist argument. Labor, blue collar, lower middle class people have just of much right to better wages, conditions, treatment, as a tech worker or anyone else. In fact bargaining power is the only way employees can have somewhat of a say in any sort of negotiation with their employers, without it it's a completely one sided relationship. Other than getting packages faster, what innovations are working class warehouse employees producing? The innovation of putting boxes together at blazing speed with no bathroom breaks in a poorly climate controlled environment? How could outsourcing a horizontally consolidated logistics empire be cheaper than upping conditions by a bit? Unions on average only cost about 10% more than a non-organized operation. That cost could be sent to the consumer or taken from revenue, by selling shares, whatever. Anything that goes against the status quo of unfettered greed, cold profit is all that matters attitude makes sense for the business. But part of why Americans enjoy such labor safety, higher pay, employer health care, etc is because of organized labor. Class consolidation is the best outcome for the most people and there are laws that facilitate it being broken by Amazon, in firing organizers. It's not just their warehouse workers they treat like garbage either, they steal successful products on their page and drop the original company from their listings and showing up in search. They charge a kickback just to rank in the search, etc, etc. Bezos is a very clever successful sociopath in my opinion.
zaphod4prez 6y ago
Well Amazon has a history of mistreating workers. So, why do we think they are likely mistreating workers? It's because they have a long & well-document track record of doing so. https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/16/17243026/amazon-warehouse-jobs-worker-conditions-bathroom-breaks https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/16/17243026/amazon-warehouse... https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/11/amazon-warehouse-reports-show-worker-injuries/602530/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/11/amazo... https://time.com/5629233/amazon-warehouse-employee-treatment-robots/ https://time.com/5629233/amazon-warehouse-employee-treatment... And the wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Amazon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Amazon
tyre 6y ago
Why would the workers organize and risk their careers without just cause? He mentions petitions with thousands of signatures. Are all of those people just…I mean, what? If they were lying, then Amazon could easily come out and say, "They're asking for regular breaks every four hours and we literally give them that. They ask for PPE and every employee is given X, Y, Z. They want us to reduce our carbon footprint by 10%, here is an independent audit showing 12% reduction." (etc.) In situations of extreme power imbalance, it's not unreasonable to default trust the person not in power who is taking far greater risk. Sometimes you'll be wrong! But the burden of proof is on people in power.
- twomoretime 6y ago
  >why would the workers organize and risk their careers without just cause Warehouse stocking is not a career. Most of these people are hourly workers with little to lose. You can't apply the same standards to white, blue, and no collar workers because the nature of both the work, the people, and the culture are totally different. If that statement shocks or offends you, I encourage you to take a temporary job at a place like Walmart or visit an oil rig and experience the differences yourself.
  - jethro_tell 6y ago
    As I understand it, the 8000 people that signed the petition of support to organize were not hourly workers but corporate white collar workers with high pay that have issues with climate response and worker protections for blue collar workers. Like Tim, the guy who wrote this essay.
    - yters 6y ago
      Very interesting. Hard data on all this would be much more valuable than anecdotes and presumption that those with power are always the evil ones. Corporations are at least some kind of good. Otherwise, we would need to all form our own little businesses, and have everyone redo a whole lot of common tasks. Corporations are the economy's approach to DRY.
abofh 6y ago
It's also possible that bezos likes to snuggle and is amazing at it. But I have yet to read a story telling me that
pietrovismara 6y ago
Just compare the incentives for both parts to be dishonest and you have your answer. What would workers gain from being dishonest except the risk of being fired or retaliated upon? And why, if organizers are lying, can't Amazon just disprove them by showing to the public their perfect working conditions? Finally, isn't it a natural instinct to side with the weaker element in a fight? Does Amazon really need your support, or are the workers one paycheck away from homelessness in need of it?
- shadowgovt 6y ago
  > What would workers gain from being dishonest Union representation and improved compensation and employment benefits. Not to say either party is being honest or being dishonest. But it's clear there's plenty to gain on both sides by, on the one hand, painting organizers ad bad employees, and on the other hand, painting working conditions as worse than they are.
  - pietrovismara 6y ago
    And why would they do it then, had they already good working conditions?
    - shadowgovt 6y ago
      Because 'good' is relative and conditions can always be better. Software engineers at Google were fired (allegedly) for attempting to unionize (https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/12/06/ex-google-engineers-federal-filing-allege-anti-union-retaliation-cost-them-their-jobs/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/12/06/ex-goog...). Google jobs are some of the best jobs in the industry, in terms of benefits, base salary, and stock compensation. Unionization isn't always about jobs being good enough. It's also about being able to set up a collective front for the workers to negotiate their arrangement with company owners. That's something every employee can want and can benefit from.
  - paypalcust83 6y ago
    Peeing in Coke bottles because of a lack of bathrooms and allowances for biological needs might be a sign.
product50 6y ago
No one at Hacker News will consider this. Here people will criticize big corporations (by generalizing few anecdotal examples) and demand higher pay while sitting inside their million dollar houses (and stopping new housing construction near them) ordering stuff from Amazon.
- jamil7 6y ago
  You're poking holes in people's comments in this thread for generalizing while making wild generalizations yourself about HN membership? Why pick this hill to die on?
  - product50 6y ago
    No one is dying here. It is a general observation about what is going on with HN users. And if you can't see the overtly anti-corporation nature of the users here, I can't say much.
    - jamil7 6y ago
      Well your comments been flagged now so I can't read it again. My point was that you made a low effort generalization about the economic and geographic situation of HN readers while calling out others for doing the same thing.
DriveReduction 6y ago
> Have you considered the possibility that Amazon actually treats their workers okay and that it's the organizers are dishonest? Why does the presumption of evil only go in one direction? Yes. As an example: > We’re already seeing devastating climate impacts: unprecedented flooding in India and Mozambique, dry water wells in Africa, coastal displacement in Asia, wildfires and floods in North America, and crop failure in Latin America That is so far removed from a company that provides web hosting and handles shipping logistics. What does transporting a cardboard box have anything to do with flooding in Mozambique? While it's unfortunate catastrophes happen. Let's be generous and assume those events are due to lax environmental regulations (0.001% to 90%). Amazon is just 1% of whatever that is. So, if these activists wish came true - and ultimately a drop in the bucket. A competitor without the hindrance could likely make up for any pollution they don't create. If you want to shape ecology, you do it through regulations (statutes). And all countries need to be on board with it. I'm going to have to go with management on this one - the exaggeration of Amazon's impact on the issue really hurts their credibility. Nothing wrong with climate change - but really against disrupting organizations needlessly.
- jzoch 6y ago
  1% is huge. You do the world a disservice by ignoring incremental change. If I tasked you wish improving the speed of a processor and you came back with "This 1% improvement is a drop in the bucket so i deleted it" you would not last long. It can start with Amazon and end with more.
  - DriveReduction 6y ago
    Nothing wrong with incremental change. But there's no justification it'd work in this context, and be worth the disruption. And the burden of proof rests on the organizers to prove why this is worthy of prioritization above other problems. While I like the sentiment and aesthetic of being courteous, I don't see anything demonstrating a binding rule or contract could come out of it. And what's the benefit again? If Amazon followed through, would the flooding and droughts cited in the original post stop? The problem is - it just seems contradictory to me. I can't put my finger on why. I think supporter's heart is in the right place. But people are struggling a lot in life and this world in various ways, is this really the most optimal way to alleviate suffering? Why not save the pay check and put it into lobbying, or NGO type stuff to advocate the cause? Or maybe even into studies or stuff more urgent that climate. For climate stuff to work, people in society have to have more harmony / generosity / collectivism universally. Until people start getting along and addressing universal human needs and fixing those, it's really hard to do cooperative endeavors like this at scale. Just my opinion! :)
efuquen 6y ago
OK boomer
- dang 6y ago
  Not here, please.
brisance 6y ago
Read the article, please. Author said nice things about his workplace & its leadership (AWS). But he could not bear to see unfair treatment and so he quit.

Have you considered the possibility that Amazon actually treats their workers okay and that it's the organizers are dishonest? Why does the presumption of evil only go in one direction?

untog 6y ago

What would the organisers have to gain from lying about bad conditions in their warehouses? It’s very obvious what Amazon gains in the reverse. The organisers are putting their livelihoods on the line, you’d have to imagine they have a good reason for doing so.

60secz 6y ago

* cough * It goes on to give tips to managers for spotting union activity. “Make it a point to regularly talk to associates in the break room. This will help protect you from accusations that you were only in the break room to spy on pro union associates,” the video says. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/22/how-amazon-is-fighting-back-against-workers-efforts-to-unionize.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/22/how-amazon-is-fighting-back-... On internal company email lists and chat groups on Thursday and Friday that Recode viewed, Amazon white-collar workers expressed dismay over a report from Vice News that the company’s top lawyer had referred to a recently fired warehouse worker as “not smart, or articulate” and implied that executives should use that to help squelch worker unionization efforts. https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/4/5/21206385/amazon-fired-warehouse-worker-christian-smalls-employee-backlash-david-zapolsky-coronavirus https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/4/5/21206385/amazon-fired-wa...

product50 6y ago
Stop quoting Vox as if they are a reliable news source. They are the ones who mocked tech workers initially for taking COVID seriously: https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/2/13/21128209/coronavirus-fears-contagion-how-infection-spreads https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/2/13/21128209/coronavirus-fe...
- chipotle_coyote 6y ago
  At risk at piling on to something that's already being downvoted, this is an extremely facile take. Nothing in the article you linked was "mocking" tech workers for being worried in mid-February. The word you are looking for is "reporting" on that situation, and also including in that report that officials at that time, in mid-February, said that while there was "always a risk" that these fears were likely overblown. Dragging Vox for accurately reporting what many experts said at the time is dragging them for not being prescient enough to know that the experts were wrong. And to top it all off, that's something that Vox is actively concerned about, given that the last episode of the Ezra Klein Show was a conversation with NYT writer Charlie Warzel about the media's response to the pandemic and how difficult it is to handle this sort of situation.
  - product50 6y ago
    Yeah - keep on reading Vox and feel enlightened. You literally are the reason why poor publications like Vox get a free pass. Here, if you don't believe me, read this thread and check yourself (https://twitter.com/balajis/status/1228447944287932416?s=20 https://twitter.com/balajis/status/1228447944287932416?s=20). And don't tell me now that Balaji is not trustworthy. He is 100x more trustworthy than a random HN user like you.
    - chipotle_coyote 6y ago
      Well, it's sure great that a random HN user like you vouches for him.
eanzenberg 6y ago
There is no faster way to stagnate an industry and destroy innovation than by workers unionizing. Enjoy more outsourcing of jobs than before.
- arez 6y ago
  the entire german country would like to have a word with you
  - jcims 6y ago
    If my two late model Audis are any testament, German engineering and standards of quality are headed straight for the shitter. Get your extended warranties people lol
- iso947 6y ago
  Maybe it would increase warehouse costs and thus increase automation. That’s good.
  - jshevek 6y ago
    That outcome would be good for most of society, but not for the very workers who are the subject of the concerns expressed in this thread.
- amphibian87 6y ago
  This is a classist argument. Labor, blue collar, lower middle class people have just of much right to better wages, conditions, treatment, as a tech worker or anyone else. In fact bargaining power is the only way employees can have somewhat of a say in any sort of negotiation with their employers, without it it's a completely one sided relationship. Other than getting packages faster, what innovations are working class warehouse employees producing? The innovation of putting boxes together at blazing speed with no bathroom breaks in a poorly climate controlled environment? How could outsourcing a horizontally consolidated logistics empire be cheaper than upping conditions by a bit? Unions on average only cost about 10% more than a non-organized operation. That cost could be sent to the consumer or taken from revenue, by selling shares, whatever. Anything that goes against the status quo of unfettered greed, cold profit is all that matters attitude makes sense for the business. But part of why Americans enjoy such labor safety, higher pay, employer health care, etc is because of organized labor. Class consolidation is the best outcome for the most people and there are laws that facilitate it being broken by Amazon, in firing organizers. It's not just their warehouse workers they treat like garbage either, they steal successful products on their page and drop the original company from their listings and showing up in search. They charge a kickback just to rank in the search, etc, etc. Bezos is a very clever successful sociopath in my opinion.

zaphod4prez 6y ago

Well Amazon has a history of mistreating workers. So, why do we think they are likely mistreating workers? It's because they have a long & well-document track record of doing so. https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/16/17243026/amazon-warehouse-jobs-worker-conditions-bathroom-breaks https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/16/17243026/amazon-warehouse... https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/11/amazon-warehouse-reports-show-worker-injuries/602530/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/11/amazo... https://time.com/5629233/amazon-warehouse-employee-treatment-robots/ https://time.com/5629233/amazon-warehouse-employee-treatment... And the wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Amazon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Amazon

tyre 6y ago

Why would the workers organize and risk their careers without just cause? He mentions petitions with thousands of signatures. Are all of those people just…I mean, what? If they were lying, then Amazon could easily come out and say, "They're asking for regular breaks every four hours and we literally give them that. They ask for PPE and every employee is given X, Y, Z. They want us to reduce our carbon footprint by 10%, here is an independent audit showing 12% reduction." (etc.) In situations of extreme power imbalance, it's not unreasonable to default trust the person not in power who is taking far greater risk. Sometimes you'll be wrong! But the burden of proof is on people in power.

twomoretime 6y ago
>why would the workers organize and risk their careers without just cause Warehouse stocking is not a career. Most of these people are hourly workers with little to lose. You can't apply the same standards to white, blue, and no collar workers because the nature of both the work, the people, and the culture are totally different. If that statement shocks or offends you, I encourage you to take a temporary job at a place like Walmart or visit an oil rig and experience the differences yourself.
- jethro_tell 6y ago
  As I understand it, the 8000 people that signed the petition of support to organize were not hourly workers but corporate white collar workers with high pay that have issues with climate response and worker protections for blue collar workers. Like Tim, the guy who wrote this essay.
  - yters 6y ago
    Very interesting. Hard data on all this would be much more valuable than anecdotes and presumption that those with power are always the evil ones. Corporations are at least some kind of good. Otherwise, we would need to all form our own little businesses, and have everyone redo a whole lot of common tasks. Corporations are the economy's approach to DRY.

abofh 6y ago

It's also possible that bezos likes to snuggle and is amazing at it. But I have yet to read a story telling me that

pietrovismara 6y ago

Just compare the incentives for both parts to be dishonest and you have your answer. What would workers gain from being dishonest except the risk of being fired or retaliated upon? And why, if organizers are lying, can't Amazon just disprove them by showing to the public their perfect working conditions? Finally, isn't it a natural instinct to side with the weaker element in a fight? Does Amazon really need your support, or are the workers one paycheck away from homelessness in need of it?

shadowgovt 6y ago
> What would workers gain from being dishonest Union representation and improved compensation and employment benefits. Not to say either party is being honest or being dishonest. But it's clear there's plenty to gain on both sides by, on the one hand, painting organizers ad bad employees, and on the other hand, painting working conditions as worse than they are.
- pietrovismara 6y ago
  And why would they do it then, had they already good working conditions?
  - shadowgovt 6y ago
    Because 'good' is relative and conditions can always be better. Software engineers at Google were fired (allegedly) for attempting to unionize (https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/12/06/ex-google-engineers-federal-filing-allege-anti-union-retaliation-cost-them-their-jobs/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/12/06/ex-goog...). Google jobs are some of the best jobs in the industry, in terms of benefits, base salary, and stock compensation. Unionization isn't always about jobs being good enough. It's also about being able to set up a collective front for the workers to negotiate their arrangement with company owners. That's something every employee can want and can benefit from.
- paypalcust83 6y ago
  Peeing in Coke bottles because of a lack of bathrooms and allowances for biological needs might be a sign.

product50 6y ago

No one at Hacker News will consider this. Here people will criticize big corporations (by generalizing few anecdotal examples) and demand higher pay while sitting inside their million dollar houses (and stopping new housing construction near them) ordering stuff from Amazon.

jamil7 6y ago
You're poking holes in people's comments in this thread for generalizing while making wild generalizations yourself about HN membership? Why pick this hill to die on?
- product50 6y ago
  No one is dying here. It is a general observation about what is going on with HN users. And if you can't see the overtly anti-corporation nature of the users here, I can't say much.
  - jamil7 6y ago
    Well your comments been flagged now so I can't read it again. My point was that you made a low effort generalization about the economic and geographic situation of HN readers while calling out others for doing the same thing.

DriveReduction 6y ago

> Have you considered the possibility that Amazon actually treats their workers okay and that it's the organizers are dishonest? Why does the presumption of evil only go in one direction? Yes. As an example: > We’re already seeing devastating climate impacts: unprecedented flooding in India and Mozambique, dry water wells in Africa, coastal displacement in Asia, wildfires and floods in North America, and crop failure in Latin America That is so far removed from a company that provides web hosting and handles shipping logistics. What does transporting a cardboard box have anything to do with flooding in Mozambique? While it's unfortunate catastrophes happen. Let's be generous and assume those events are due to lax environmental regulations (0.001% to 90%). Amazon is just 1% of whatever that is. So, if these activists wish came true - and ultimately a drop in the bucket. A competitor without the hindrance could likely make up for any pollution they don't create. If you want to shape ecology, you do it through regulations (statutes). And all countries need to be on board with it. I'm going to have to go with management on this one - the exaggeration of Amazon's impact on the issue really hurts their credibility. Nothing wrong with climate change - but really against disrupting organizations needlessly.

jzoch 6y ago
1% is huge. You do the world a disservice by ignoring incremental change. If I tasked you wish improving the speed of a processor and you came back with "This 1% improvement is a drop in the bucket so i deleted it" you would not last long. It can start with Amazon and end with more.
- DriveReduction 6y ago
  Nothing wrong with incremental change. But there's no justification it'd work in this context, and be worth the disruption. And the burden of proof rests on the organizers to prove why this is worthy of prioritization above other problems. While I like the sentiment and aesthetic of being courteous, I don't see anything demonstrating a binding rule or contract could come out of it. And what's the benefit again? If Amazon followed through, would the flooding and droughts cited in the original post stop? The problem is - it just seems contradictory to me. I can't put my finger on why. I think supporter's heart is in the right place. But people are struggling a lot in life and this world in various ways, is this really the most optimal way to alleviate suffering? Why not save the pay check and put it into lobbying, or NGO type stuff to advocate the cause? Or maybe even into studies or stuff more urgent that climate. For climate stuff to work, people in society have to have more harmony / generosity / collectivism universally. Until people start getting along and addressing universal human needs and fixing those, it's really hard to do cooperative endeavors like this at scale. Just my opinion! :)

efuquen 6y ago

OK boomer

dang 6y ago
Not here, please.

brisance 6y ago

Read the article, please. Author said nice things about his workplace & its leadership (AWS). But he could not bear to see unfair treatment and so he quit.