12 ms·

Completely anecdotal. It's possible some Amazon Warehouses are run better than others. A friend who recently got a job (5 weeks ago) at one of Amazons warehous

Completely anecdotal. It's possible some Amazon Warehouses are run better than others. A friend who recently got a job (5 weeks ago) at one of Amazons warehouses (NJ/NYC area) has only praise for the way things are run. They take his temperature 3 times a day, provide a mask, constantly monitor social distancing, clean washrooms every hour, enforce social distancing in any break rooms, work areas, etc. He says it's never an issue with breaks, lunch, etc. He has mentioned that they encourage him to keep an eye out for other positions he might have an interest in since he is eligible (after 30 days)to apply (he has some skills that can be more useful to Amazon). I was always under the assumption from what I have read that Amazon was a sweat shop. It seems that at least his facility is run very well.

TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
> 5 weeks ago Still in the honeymoon period, give it time.
grawprog 6y ago
But as a corporation, every poorly run warehouse reflects on Amazon. It doesn't matter if some of them are good, Amazon is allowing the sweat shop level ones to exist and continue to be run that way. This implies they're ok with this or at the very least don't give a shit about how their warehouses are run or whether their employees are treated properly.
- o10449366 6y ago
  Which warehouses are "sweat shop" level?
  - dessant 6y ago
    I think all of them, given that workers are severely underpaid compared to the value they provide, and have no means to influence the future of the company, other than to speak up and be fired. Though it's possible that the parent was referring to Amazon warehouses where workers had to pee in a bottle to keep their productivity points above the cutoff level.
    - 0xy 6y ago
      They're paid at the level they will accept for the job they provide. Amazon couldn't hire 100,000 people in a month if they were underpaying anyone. Also, why should they have means to influence the future of the company? They're hired voluntarily to do one job, not to lead the company.
      - dessant 6y ago
        They accept the job because they need it to survive, but that does not mean they are happy with what they're paid, see all the crushed unionization attempts. Nor does it mean that the company cannot afford to pay them more and still make a nice profit, just because they'd also work for less. Yes, workers should be able to influence the future of a company they invest their lives in, the same way citizens can influence the future of their countries. The incentives of workers and shareholders can be aligned, when greed is kept in check. https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/14/politics/bernie-sanders-worker-ownership-plan/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/14/politics/bernie-sanders-w...
        0xy 6y ago
        Why should a worker who voluntarily accepts a contract be allowed to renege on that contract and suddenly have control of other people's property?
        wins32767 6y ago
        Because contracts aren't the highest form of value, they are just a construct we agree to follow as a tool to help create a society that aligns to our values? If contracts are creating results that are not aligned with our values as a society, we should be willing to modify them or do away with the concept of a contract entirely if that allows us to get to a better outcome that we collectively agree upon.
        0xy 6y ago
        Seems to me like this ideology was soundly rejected twice by an extremely large margin in Sanders' losses in 2016 and 2020. I don't think the country wants to eliminate the idea of a voluntary contract as you suggest.
  - SamWhited 6y ago
    The ones that have been in the news for years for being sweat shop level. The ones that 60 Minutes did an exposition on, and that activists have been trying to draw attention to. I don't understand what you want by asking this question, an address?
  - three_seagrass 6y ago
    https://nypost.com/2019/11/30/amazon-warehouses-are-cult-like-sweatshops-run-by-robots-ex-employee/ https://nypost.com/2019/11/30/amazon-warehouses-are-cult-lik... >I soon learned that only difference between an Amazon warehouse and a third-world sweatshop were the robots. At Amazon, you were surrounded by bots, and they were treated better than the humans.
    - o10449366 6y ago
      Are there 3rd world sweatshops that pay $16 USD/hour and provide benefits? I'd wager there are a few more differences than just the robots.
      - three_seagrass 6y ago
        This is a No-True Scotsman. You asked for examples of Amazon sweatshop conditions, and once given, you're now redefining the semantics of 'true' sweatshops to being both in the third world and making less than $16/hour.
        pathseeker 6y ago
        No it's not. The very definition of sweatshop implies very low wages and long hours.
        three_seagrass 6y ago
        According to Wikipedia, a sweatshop is semantically a workplace with very poor, socially unacceptable or illegal working conditions. The work may be difficult, dangerous, climatically challenging or underpaid. It's true that workers in sweatshops may work long hours with low pay, but it's not limited to that. If you read the article with the example that was asked for, you'd see the examples of how it's sweatshop conditions.
        adamweld 6y ago
        I read through the article, I don't really see how it fits that definition. Long shifts on your feet, physical labor, short breaks and no cell phones. Precise tracking of performance. Does it sound like fun? Hell no. But it seems like decent pay for unskilled physical labor, and I haven't read anything that sounds like sweatshop conditions.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
aabeshou 6y ago
maybe the conditions vary from one warehouse to another, but the fact remains that Amazon smeared and retaliated against whistleblowers at warehouses with terrible conditions
myle 6y ago
Completely anecdotal.
- jhwang5 6y ago
  By definition, so are the incidents that are reported by NYTimes. Amazon has hundreds of fulfillment centers around the world, and it's possible that the sufferings of some workers are exceptions, not the norm.
  - uselesstech 6y ago
    If that were the case, you would think that Amazon would address the issues raised my employees instead of firing them. By firing them, they discourage others from coming forward so it’s not really possible to get a good picture of the situation.
    - toasterlovin 6y ago
      Perhaps there's more to the story and we on the outside are in a really poor position to actually know what's going on?
      - x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago
        So we are supposed to sit here and act like Amazon doesn't have a notorious rep in the street for how it treats it's employees, even it's software devs? And we are supposed to act like the US in general doesn't have a strong anti-labor tilt since Reagan in the 80s? You are begging the reader to throw out any knowledge of the company and the country it's in so that they can arrive to a conclusion of "We don't have all the facts!!!!". That's not going to be very effective.
        toasterlovin 6y ago
        A default position against Amazon ignores some important considerations, in my opinion: 1. News outlets have a huge incentive to report on anti-Amazon facts, but little to no incentive to report on pro-Amazon facts. "Megacorp is imperfect, but mostly okay" is not a headline that generates clicks. 2. Amazon has a huge incentive to ensure that they comply with the law. Every labor lawyer in the country wants to take them to court and extract a settlement. And there are plenty of politicians that would love to make their career by bringing Amazon to heel.
pwinnski 6y ago
Bray didn't quit over the conditions in the warehouses, he quit over Amazon's brazen and dishonest firings of organizers. It's possible that if every Amazon warehouse were run as well, those organizers would not have arisen, but it's Amazon nastiness toward them that's most alarming.
- toasterlovin 6y ago
  Have you considered the possibility that Amazon actually treats their workers okay and that it's the organizers are dishonest? Why does the presumption of evil only go in one direction?
  - untog 6y ago
    What would the organisers have to gain from lying about bad conditions in their warehouses? It’s very obvious what Amazon gains in the reverse. The organisers are putting their livelihoods on the line, you’d have to imagine they have a good reason for doing so.
  - 60secz 6y ago
    * cough * It goes on to give tips to managers for spotting union activity. “Make it a point to regularly talk to associates in the break room. This will help protect you from accusations that you were only in the break room to spy on pro union associates,” the video says. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/22/how-amazon-is-fighting-back-against-workers-efforts-to-unionize.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/22/how-amazon-is-fighting-back-... On internal company email lists and chat groups on Thursday and Friday that Recode viewed, Amazon white-collar workers expressed dismay over a report from Vice News that the company’s top lawyer had referred to a recently fired warehouse worker as “not smart, or articulate” and implied that executives should use that to help squelch worker unionization efforts. https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/4/5/21206385/amazon-fired-warehouse-worker-christian-smalls-employee-backlash-david-zapolsky-coronavirus https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/4/5/21206385/amazon-fired-wa...
    - product50 6y ago
MisterTea 6y ago
Parent is spewing anecdotal lies paid for by Amazon. Anyone in NYC has heard the accusations over and over: https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/10/21216172/amazon-coronavirus-protests-response-safety-jfk8-fired-covid-19 https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/10/21216172/amazon-coronavir... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/mar/30/amazon-workers-strike-coronavirus https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/mar/30/amazon-wo... https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/03/nyregion/coronavirus-nyc-chris-smalls-amazon.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/03/nyregion/coronavirus-nyc-... https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/4/14/21220899/amazon-fired-activist-employees-warehouse-conditions-emily-cunningham-bashir-mohamed-maren-costa https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/4/14/21220899/amazon-fired-a...
- xendo 6y ago
  Amazon has hundreds of thousands employees. Please, before calling someone a liar, just consider the possibility that anecdotes on both sides are correct.
merpnderp 6y ago
Same with the St. Louis facility, it is a marvel of working in the age of COVID. Trainees kept breaking the 6' mark so they installed physical barriers. Automated systems track social distancing and warn people. I have family at that facility and it sounds like an incredible place to work - especially in the age of COVID.
netcan 6y ago
>> from what I have read that Amazon was a sweat shop. It depends where you read. HN, and a lot of places that might be reporting/commenting on amazon normally comment on tech companies. Amazon runs warehouses alongside a tech shop. Comparatively, a warehouse is a tech shop. It's the clash of worlds driving the notoriety.
ignoramous 6y ago
Bray acknowledged that much. > On the other hand, Amazon’s messaging has been urgent that they are prioritizing this issue and putting massive efforts into warehouse safety. I actually believe this: I have heard detailed descriptions from people I trust of the intense work and huge investments. Good for them; and let’s grant that you don’t turn a supertanker on a dime. > But I believe the worker testimony too. And at the end of the day, the big problem isn’t the specifics of Covid-19 response. It’s that Amazon treats the humans in the warehouses as fungible units of pick-and-pack potential. He concluded the piece with: > ...it’s all about power balances. The warehouse workers are weak and getting weaker, what with mass unemployment and (in the US) job-linked health insurance. So they’re gonna get treated like crap, because capitalism. Any plausible solution has to start with increasing their collective strength.
- brchn 6y ago
  Exactly. Too many people are refuting the protestors' claims about warehouse conditions, when that's not the point of his argument.
Barrin92 6y ago
It speaks volumes that you think that actually deserves any sort of praise. Wow, they aren't running sweatshops in America? Hand them a fucking medal. Tim Bray quit over the way Amazon treats labour organizers, not the fact that they protect the health of their workers during a pandemic.
telaelit 6y ago
This seems like a pretty obviously planted pro-Amazon, anti-worker, propaganda
- dang 6y ago
  You can't post like this to HN without evidence, because the vast majority of such accusations are pure imagination. I know that because I've spent countless hours over many years poring over data on this. There is lots of previous explanation at https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20astroturf https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... for anyone who wants it. HN has millions of users on all sides of every major ideological divide. When a community is that large and divided, the appearance of a comment you don't like is evidence of nothing more than that the topic is divisive. To go beyond that in terms of accusing or suspecting others, you need something more to go on, and if you have that, you should be sending it to hn@ycombinator.com so we can investigate. You should not be tossing internet dross like these one-liners into the threads. Generally speaking (not picking on you personally), when it comes to internet tropes about things like astroturfing, "pretty obviously" macroexpands to "entirely in my imagination", since if the users who post such accusations actually had anything to go on, they would be the first to mention it. All this has been in the site guidelines for quite a while. Could you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here? Note this one: Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email us and we'll look at the data. Notes for the troubled: (1) I'm not posting this because I love Amazon, hate warehouse workers, or for any ideological reason; it is routine HN moderation and the other side gets it just as well; (2) I'm not saying astroturfing doesn't exist—I'm saying we have to look at it with facts, not just loyalties. Running into comments that offend our loyalties is something we all experience on the internet, especially on a non-siloed (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20silo&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...) site like HN, where people can't self-isolate among the like-minded. There's a strong tendency to defend ourselves against the painful experience of the offensive by accusing the other party of being an abuser, a manipulator, a foreign agent. All sides do this, but it's fatal to the curious conversation that HN exists for, so we all need to coax ourselves out of it.
birdlover 6y ago
I view this as an "8 hour workday" deal. It would be like it is now, if it hadn't been workers organizing and speaking out.
ssalazar 6y ago
Whats completely anecdotal-- your counterargument here?
warmfuzzykitten 6y ago
A company is not just one thing. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/response-tim-brays-departure-brad-porter/ https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/response-tim-brays-departure-...

TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago

> 5 weeks ago Still in the honeymoon period, give it time.

grawprog 6y ago

But as a corporation, every poorly run warehouse reflects on Amazon. It doesn't matter if some of them are good, Amazon is allowing the sweat shop level ones to exist and continue to be run that way. This implies they're ok with this or at the very least don't give a shit about how their warehouses are run or whether their employees are treated properly.

o10449366 6y ago
Which warehouses are "sweat shop" level?
- dessant 6y ago
  I think all of them, given that workers are severely underpaid compared to the value they provide, and have no means to influence the future of the company, other than to speak up and be fired. Though it's possible that the parent was referring to Amazon warehouses where workers had to pee in a bottle to keep their productivity points above the cutoff level.
  - 0xy 6y ago
    They're paid at the level they will accept for the job they provide. Amazon couldn't hire 100,000 people in a month if they were underpaying anyone. Also, why should they have means to influence the future of the company? They're hired voluntarily to do one job, not to lead the company.
    - dessant 6y ago
      They accept the job because they need it to survive, but that does not mean they are happy with what they're paid, see all the crushed unionization attempts. Nor does it mean that the company cannot afford to pay them more and still make a nice profit, just because they'd also work for less. Yes, workers should be able to influence the future of a company they invest their lives in, the same way citizens can influence the future of their countries. The incentives of workers and shareholders can be aligned, when greed is kept in check. https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/14/politics/bernie-sanders-worker-ownership-plan/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/14/politics/bernie-sanders-w...
      - 0xy 6y ago
        Why should a worker who voluntarily accepts a contract be allowed to renege on that contract and suddenly have control of other people's property?
        wins32767 6y ago
        Because contracts aren't the highest form of value, they are just a construct we agree to follow as a tool to help create a society that aligns to our values? If contracts are creating results that are not aligned with our values as a society, we should be willing to modify them or do away with the concept of a contract entirely if that allows us to get to a better outcome that we collectively agree upon.
        0xy 6y ago
        Seems to me like this ideology was soundly rejected twice by an extremely large margin in Sanders' losses in 2016 and 2020. I don't think the country wants to eliminate the idea of a voluntary contract as you suggest.
- SamWhited 6y ago
  The ones that have been in the news for years for being sweat shop level. The ones that 60 Minutes did an exposition on, and that activists have been trying to draw attention to. I don't understand what you want by asking this question, an address?
- three_seagrass 6y ago
  https://nypost.com/2019/11/30/amazon-warehouses-are-cult-like-sweatshops-run-by-robots-ex-employee/ https://nypost.com/2019/11/30/amazon-warehouses-are-cult-lik... >I soon learned that only difference between an Amazon warehouse and a third-world sweatshop were the robots. At Amazon, you were surrounded by bots, and they were treated better than the humans.
  - o10449366 6y ago
    Are there 3rd world sweatshops that pay $16 USD/hour and provide benefits? I'd wager there are a few more differences than just the robots.
    - three_seagrass 6y ago
      This is a No-True Scotsman. You asked for examples of Amazon sweatshop conditions, and once given, you're now redefining the semantics of 'true' sweatshops to being both in the third world and making less than $16/hour.
      - pathseeker 6y ago
        No it's not. The very definition of sweatshop implies very low wages and long hours.
        three_seagrass 6y ago
        According to Wikipedia, a sweatshop is semantically a workplace with very poor, socially unacceptable or illegal working conditions. The work may be difficult, dangerous, climatically challenging or underpaid. It's true that workers in sweatshops may work long hours with low pay, but it's not limited to that. If you read the article with the example that was asked for, you'd see the examples of how it's sweatshop conditions.
        adamweld 6y ago
        I read through the article, I don't really see how it fits that definition. Long shifts on your feet, physical labor, short breaks and no cell phones. Precise tracking of performance. Does it sound like fun? Hell no. But it seems like decent pay for unskilled physical labor, and I haven't read anything that sounds like sweatshop conditions.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

aabeshou 6y ago

maybe the conditions vary from one warehouse to another, but the fact remains that Amazon smeared and retaliated against whistleblowers at warehouses with terrible conditions

myle 6y ago

Completely anecdotal.

jhwang5 6y ago
By definition, so are the incidents that are reported by NYTimes. Amazon has hundreds of fulfillment centers around the world, and it's possible that the sufferings of some workers are exceptions, not the norm.
- uselesstech 6y ago
  If that were the case, you would think that Amazon would address the issues raised my employees instead of firing them. By firing them, they discourage others from coming forward so it’s not really possible to get a good picture of the situation.
  - toasterlovin 6y ago
    Perhaps there's more to the story and we on the outside are in a really poor position to actually know what's going on?
    - x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago
      So we are supposed to sit here and act like Amazon doesn't have a notorious rep in the street for how it treats it's employees, even it's software devs? And we are supposed to act like the US in general doesn't have a strong anti-labor tilt since Reagan in the 80s? You are begging the reader to throw out any knowledge of the company and the country it's in so that they can arrive to a conclusion of "We don't have all the facts!!!!". That's not going to be very effective.
      - toasterlovin 6y ago
        A default position against Amazon ignores some important considerations, in my opinion: 1. News outlets have a huge incentive to report on anti-Amazon facts, but little to no incentive to report on pro-Amazon facts. "Megacorp is imperfect, but mostly okay" is not a headline that generates clicks. 2. Amazon has a huge incentive to ensure that they comply with the law. Every labor lawyer in the country wants to take them to court and extract a settlement. And there are plenty of politicians that would love to make their career by bringing Amazon to heel.

pwinnski 6y ago

Bray didn't quit over the conditions in the warehouses, he quit over Amazon's brazen and dishonest firings of organizers. It's possible that if every Amazon warehouse were run as well, those organizers would not have arisen, but it's Amazon nastiness toward them that's most alarming.

toasterlovin 6y ago
Have you considered the possibility that Amazon actually treats their workers okay and that it's the organizers are dishonest? Why does the presumption of evil only go in one direction?
- untog 6y ago
  What would the organisers have to gain from lying about bad conditions in their warehouses? It’s very obvious what Amazon gains in the reverse. The organisers are putting their livelihoods on the line, you’d have to imagine they have a good reason for doing so.
- 60secz 6y ago
  * cough * It goes on to give tips to managers for spotting union activity. “Make it a point to regularly talk to associates in the break room. This will help protect you from accusations that you were only in the break room to spy on pro union associates,” the video says. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/22/how-amazon-is-fighting-back-against-workers-efforts-to-unionize.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/22/how-amazon-is-fighting-back-... On internal company email lists and chat groups on Thursday and Friday that Recode viewed, Amazon white-collar workers expressed dismay over a report from Vice News that the company’s top lawyer had referred to a recently fired warehouse worker as “not smart, or articulate” and implied that executives should use that to help squelch worker unionization efforts. https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/4/5/21206385/amazon-fired-warehouse-worker-christian-smalls-employee-backlash-david-zapolsky-coronavirus https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/4/5/21206385/amazon-fired-wa...
  - product50 6y ago

MisterTea 6y ago

Parent is spewing anecdotal lies paid for by Amazon. Anyone in NYC has heard the accusations over and over: https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/10/21216172/amazon-coronavirus-protests-response-safety-jfk8-fired-covid-19 https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/10/21216172/amazon-coronavir... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/mar/30/amazon-workers-strike-coronavirus https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/mar/30/amazon-wo... https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/03/nyregion/coronavirus-nyc-chris-smalls-amazon.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/03/nyregion/coronavirus-nyc-... https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/4/14/21220899/amazon-fired-activist-employees-warehouse-conditions-emily-cunningham-bashir-mohamed-maren-costa https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/4/14/21220899/amazon-fired-a...

xendo 6y ago
Amazon has hundreds of thousands employees. Please, before calling someone a liar, just consider the possibility that anecdotes on both sides are correct.

merpnderp 6y ago

Same with the St. Louis facility, it is a marvel of working in the age of COVID. Trainees kept breaking the 6' mark so they installed physical barriers. Automated systems track social distancing and warn people. I have family at that facility and it sounds like an incredible place to work - especially in the age of COVID.

netcan 6y ago

>> from what I have read that Amazon was a sweat shop. It depends where you read. HN, and a lot of places that might be reporting/commenting on amazon normally comment on tech companies. Amazon runs warehouses alongside a tech shop. Comparatively, a warehouse is a tech shop. It's the clash of worlds driving the notoriety.

ignoramous 6y ago

Bray acknowledged that much. > On the other hand, Amazon’s messaging has been urgent that they are prioritizing this issue and putting massive efforts into warehouse safety. I actually believe this: I have heard detailed descriptions from people I trust of the intense work and huge investments. Good for them; and let’s grant that you don’t turn a supertanker on a dime. > But I believe the worker testimony too. And at the end of the day, the big problem isn’t the specifics of Covid-19 response. It’s that Amazon treats the humans in the warehouses as fungible units of pick-and-pack potential. He concluded the piece with: > ...it’s all about power balances. The warehouse workers are weak and getting weaker, what with mass unemployment and (in the US) job-linked health insurance. So they’re gonna get treated like crap, because capitalism. Any plausible solution has to start with increasing their collective strength.

brchn 6y ago
Exactly. Too many people are refuting the protestors' claims about warehouse conditions, when that's not the point of his argument.

Barrin92 6y ago

It speaks volumes that you think that actually deserves any sort of praise. Wow, they aren't running sweatshops in America? Hand them a fucking medal. Tim Bray quit over the way Amazon treats labour organizers, not the fact that they protect the health of their workers during a pandemic.

telaelit 6y ago

This seems like a pretty obviously planted pro-Amazon, anti-worker, propaganda

dang 6y ago
You can't post like this to HN without evidence, because the vast majority of such accusations are pure imagination. I know that because I've spent countless hours over many years poring over data on this. There is lots of previous explanation at https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20astroturf https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... for anyone who wants it. HN has millions of users on all sides of every major ideological divide. When a community is that large and divided, the appearance of a comment you don't like is evidence of nothing more than that the topic is divisive. To go beyond that in terms of accusing or suspecting others, you need something more to go on, and if you have that, you should be sending it to hn@ycombinator.com so we can investigate. You should not be tossing internet dross like these one-liners into the threads. Generally speaking (not picking on you personally), when it comes to internet tropes about things like astroturfing, "pretty obviously" macroexpands to "entirely in my imagination", since if the users who post such accusations actually had anything to go on, they would be the first to mention it. All this has been in the site guidelines for quite a while. Could you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here? Note this one: Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email us and we'll look at the data. Notes for the troubled: (1) I'm not posting this because I love Amazon, hate warehouse workers, or for any ideological reason; it is routine HN moderation and the other side gets it just as well; (2) I'm not saying astroturfing doesn't exist—I'm saying we have to look at it with facts, not just loyalties. Running into comments that offend our loyalties is something we all experience on the internet, especially on a non-siloed (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20silo&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...) site like HN, where people can't self-isolate among the like-minded. There's a strong tendency to defend ourselves against the painful experience of the offensive by accusing the other party of being an abuser, a manipulator, a foreign agent. All sides do this, but it's fatal to the curious conversation that HN exists for, so we all need to coax ourselves out of it.

birdlover 6y ago

I view this as an "8 hour workday" deal. It would be like it is now, if it hadn't been workers organizing and speaking out.

ssalazar 6y ago

Whats completely anecdotal-- your counterargument here?

warmfuzzykitten 6y ago

A company is not just one thing. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/response-tim-brays-departure-brad-porter/ https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/response-tim-brays-departure-...