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I'd say about 70-80% of managers I've had couldn't build or work on the product that they're tasked with managing. And... I resent that. The truth is you need

I'd say about 70-80% of managers I've had couldn't build or work on the product that they're tasked with managing. And... I resent that. The truth is you need near-100% understanding of the code going into the product to really gauge someone's participation accurately. Looking at LOC, # of commits, etc. is all fluid so while they describe properties of the story, they're not the actual story itself. Also, there's up and down weeks. I've watched my top performers have poop weeks where they've only been able to crank out a couple of small features, or maybe just resolved one issue, etc. I feel like if micro-managers saw this they'd put the hurt on em... for me it literally never came up because within 1-2 weeks they'd be back on the rails. I was always like "huh - musta been some human stuff." Or, heck... sometimes I could tell they just moved a bit slower on more mundane tasks. When I put myself in a position to relate to that I find that I have the same lulls, lack of motivation for mundane work, etc. People NOT getting back on the rails after 1-2 weeks of meh was the exception! I also felt like I could demand more of my team during the 2-3 crank-it-out periods that inevitably occurred throughout the year because I had respected their time leading up to that... IDK. All-in-all if specs were being respected, code was clean/reasonably PR'd, deadlines were hit, and meetings were well prep'd for + attended I felt that we were being successful.

ishjoh 6y ago
where there are dips in productivity it can also be that they're getting up to speed on an area of the codebase they are not familiar with. Ramp-up time is always difficult to account for but is absolutely something everyone needs when looking at new code.
- folkhack 6y ago
  Yep! Or even just people documenting could look weird on metrics/etc. I'd admit I was in the dark a lot, and that many times I would be perceiving a "productivity dip" when it was a situation like you're describing. I learned quick to not make assumptions, and to hire/retain people who I could trust... I also requested informal reports ever 48hrs or so with links to what you'd been working on, PR's, documentation, etc. Reports were sent to a distro list of all team members and replaced traditional stand-ups. So generally if I was in the dark it would all be figured out in due time without having to get up someone's butt. I feel like it kept everyone accountable and transparent when everything was in writing. Also with ramp-up specifically... since I was paying attention to the hard metrics I started to get a feel for when something was difficult vs. easy. Projects that would kick people down for simple tasks would get priority for refactor, difficult onboarding was usually met with aggressive documentation, etc. Over time you got a taste of what these beasts were without even being an IC on them.
epicureanideal 6y ago
Does anyone have any theories about why this is the case about middle management? How does this happen? I've seen this almost everywhere I've worked. I have my own theories, but I'd really like to hear what others think about this.
- DanBC 6y ago
  Maybe it's that if people can do the job you want to keep them doing it. If they can't you move them, and often moving people up is the easiest thing to do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle
- lowdose 6y ago
  Gervais principle https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-...
mywittyname 6y ago
I feel the urge to commend your approach to manage your team. When I'm having off-weeks, I'm painfully aware of them. It causes me a lot of personal stress and anxiety. My manager is like you and never calls me out of it during our standups. He may ping me and ask how I'm doing, etc. I'm glad he doesn't call me out on it because that would just amplify my anxiety and probably make things worse. You're right, after a week, maybe two, I get right back on the horse and manage to catch up.
- folkhack 6y ago
  Sounds like a solid manager! People wanna feel safe... And go figure, when they do their output usually goes from being minimal effort to above and beyond. Also feeling safe has sooooo many more institutional benefits etc. Errors are identified + corrected quicker, people don't play politics near as much, things just get "easier"... hard to explain. But yea - definitely give that guy some positive feedback in your 1:1's. That was one thing that helped me really design a system that people wanted to work within, solid feedback when things work/didn't work =)
crankylinuxuser 6y ago
Wasnt there a story about a graybeard who, upon being turned into a gamafied LOC programmer, ended up changing 2 lines and removing 2000? He put -1998 lines on his daily email? And I think that hits to the core of Goodhart's law: ""When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.""
- Moto7451 6y ago
  You might be thinking of https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Negative_2000_Lines_Of_Code.txt https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Negative_2000_Li...
  - crankylinuxuser 6y ago
    Indeed! That's it :) Thank you for finding it.
- folkhack 6y ago
  Lol - old graybeard ... it was Bill freakin' Atkinson. Author of HyperCard and one of my heroes! This story came up often when I said I read the commits daily. I would just roll my eyes and say "I read code, I don't look at arbitrary LOC". If the story is true it shows incompetence with the managers to pick such an arbitrary metric to measure with. Plus, when you start policing people like this you can damn-near guarantee motivation goes in the trashcan because now it's a "me vs. you" thing... and eww who wants to come to work with THAT?!

ishjoh 6y ago

where there are dips in productivity it can also be that they're getting up to speed on an area of the codebase they are not familiar with. Ramp-up time is always difficult to account for but is absolutely something everyone needs when looking at new code.

folkhack 6y ago
Yep! Or even just people documenting could look weird on metrics/etc. I'd admit I was in the dark a lot, and that many times I would be perceiving a "productivity dip" when it was a situation like you're describing. I learned quick to not make assumptions, and to hire/retain people who I could trust... I also requested informal reports ever 48hrs or so with links to what you'd been working on, PR's, documentation, etc. Reports were sent to a distro list of all team members and replaced traditional stand-ups. So generally if I was in the dark it would all be figured out in due time without having to get up someone's butt. I feel like it kept everyone accountable and transparent when everything was in writing. Also with ramp-up specifically... since I was paying attention to the hard metrics I started to get a feel for when something was difficult vs. easy. Projects that would kick people down for simple tasks would get priority for refactor, difficult onboarding was usually met with aggressive documentation, etc. Over time you got a taste of what these beasts were without even being an IC on them.

epicureanideal 6y ago

Does anyone have any theories about why this is the case about middle management? How does this happen? I've seen this almost everywhere I've worked. I have my own theories, but I'd really like to hear what others think about this.

DanBC 6y ago
Maybe it's that if people can do the job you want to keep them doing it. If they can't you move them, and often moving people up is the easiest thing to do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle
lowdose 6y ago
Gervais principle https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-...

mywittyname 6y ago

I feel the urge to commend your approach to manage your team. When I'm having off-weeks, I'm painfully aware of them. It causes me a lot of personal stress and anxiety. My manager is like you and never calls me out of it during our standups. He may ping me and ask how I'm doing, etc. I'm glad he doesn't call me out on it because that would just amplify my anxiety and probably make things worse. You're right, after a week, maybe two, I get right back on the horse and manage to catch up.

folkhack 6y ago
Sounds like a solid manager! People wanna feel safe... And go figure, when they do their output usually goes from being minimal effort to above and beyond. Also feeling safe has sooooo many more institutional benefits etc. Errors are identified + corrected quicker, people don't play politics near as much, things just get "easier"... hard to explain. But yea - definitely give that guy some positive feedback in your 1:1's. That was one thing that helped me really design a system that people wanted to work within, solid feedback when things work/didn't work =)

crankylinuxuser 6y ago

Wasnt there a story about a graybeard who, upon being turned into a gamafied LOC programmer, ended up changing 2 lines and removing 2000? He put -1998 lines on his daily email? And I think that hits to the core of Goodhart's law: ""When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.""

Moto7451 6y ago
You might be thinking of https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Negative_2000_Lines_Of_Code.txt https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Negative_2000_Li...
- crankylinuxuser 6y ago
  Indeed! That's it :) Thank you for finding it.
folkhack 6y ago
Lol - old graybeard ... it was Bill freakin' Atkinson. Author of HyperCard and one of my heroes! This story came up often when I said I read the commits daily. I would just roll my eyes and say "I read code, I don't look at arbitrary LOC". If the story is true it shows incompetence with the managers to pick such an arbitrary metric to measure with. Plus, when you start policing people like this you can damn-near guarantee motivation goes in the trashcan because now it's a "me vs. you" thing... and eww who wants to come to work with THAT?!