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I'm an academic who develops Free / Open Source software and distributes libraries and binaries for the Windows, x86 and x86_64 Linux and Mac platforms along wi

by A1kmm 16y ago

I'm an academic who develops Free / Open Source software and distributes libraries and binaries for the Windows, x86 and x86_64 Linux and Mac platforms along with the source. One important library generates C code based on a domain specific language, links a shared object and uses that; on Windows and Linux, we ship a cut back gcc and libtools to do that; libtools doesn't work on the Mac (at least last time I looked into it), so we asked Apple for permission to distribute their linker back in 2005, and they said no, so we have been telling Mac users to sign up for a developer account and install XCode (stupid since they had to download multiple gigabytes for a fairly small binary). Even getting XCode for our own use to put on our Mac build server will be difficult now; $4.99 may be a token price, but any price in the academic world means that things have to get charged against a cost centre; policies mean it probably can't be charged as IT overhead (like Mac build servers and operating systems can) because it is specifically for development, so it needs to be justified as part of a grant. For things like that, the University will probably want Apple to go a months long process to become a designated approver (Apple hardware is not normally purchased direct from Apple), and to pay for things like that by purchase order - the administrative cost of which would be greatly more than $4.99. The end result of all this is that Apple will probably not be a supported platform for our software any more, and users will be asked to use a virtual machine or move to a different platform if they want to use our software. Apple is already one of the most difficult platforms to develop on, largely because of the way their linker and object loaders work; it is one of the few platforms (I think Irix is another) where objects to be opened with a dlopen like mechanism are in a different format to normal shared objects; making the barriers higher for academic users trying to develop multi-platform software will simply result in academic and other free software being less available on Mac; some academic users like being on Mac, but I expect that as it becomes progressively more of a disadvantage and Apple becomes more of a pariah, this will change.

damoncali 16y ago
That sounds more like a problem with academia than Apple. Just sayin'.
- astrodust 16y ago
  When the software costs only a few bucks more than the DVD you could burn it on and warez it from a friend, and a fraction of the price of the USB stick it would fit on, you know you're being cheap.
  - bioinformatics 16y ago
    I'm in academia too and if XCode 4 doesn't come with Lion, I would gladly pay from my pocket for it. Imagine that I would put the bureaucracy machine of a university or institute for 5 bucks is ludicrous. Our salaries are lower but we are not below the poverty line.
    - astrodust 16y ago
      I'd hope that in academia your term paper isn't held up waiting for a couple of new white board markers, or a ream of paper because your requisition form wasn't approved. It's somewhat discouraging that Apple is charging for what used to be provided at no cost. Still, if Apple can't make five bucks on a product that other companies sell for hundreds, what hope do any other developers have?
      - bioinformatics 16y ago
        We usually don't have problems with markers or paper, the department has a stock of that. There's no lack of money in academia, just wasteful spending. Wait and see if Lion comes with XCode. Then we can say they are actually charging for it.
ptomato 16y ago
Xcode 4 will still be included for free with the OS, I'm willing to bet, just like previous versions were.
jckarter 16y ago
Every Mac still ships with Xcode on the OS install disc, as do the OS X upgrade discs. Let's wait until Lion comes out before assuming that won't be the case anymore.
- electrum 16y ago
  The MacBook Air doesn't ship with Xcode.
  - dpezely 16y ago
    I have a current model 11.6" Air purchased in January, and Xcode was pre-installed into /Developer. This was a stock machine: walked into Apple Store to buy it. (No special factory config) Compiling SBCL and a few items from MacPorts worked fine, so everything seems consistent with what I've seen on other Macs since 2005.
calloc 16y ago
Xcode 3 is still a free download from http://connect.apple.com/ http://connect.apple.com/ also on the Xcode 4 page it has a link in the bottom right that allows you go to the Xcode 3 download page.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
mmastrac 16y ago
The GCC toolchain can link Mach-O binaries without using any code from Apple. Building GCC cross-compilers like this is a pain, but crosstools takes a bit of that away: http://www.kegel.com/crosstool/ http://www.kegel.com/crosstool/ Basically, you can generate your own binaries and ship them under the GPL. No Apple needed. I'll ask for more info from someone I know who built an OSX cross-compiler under Linux.
- wmf 16y ago
  Who said anything about cross compiling? It sounds like he'd be fine with regular GCC+binutils. (I don't see anything about Mach-O support in the ld manual, though...)
  - mmastrac 16y ago
    I think this would be considered a cross-compiler, even though you are building OSX on OSX. You would be building a version of GCC that targets OSX with a different version of GCC.
kjksf 16y ago
Are you really saying that you can't afford to pay $5 from your own pocket for XCode 4? What price, other than $0, would be acceptable for a tool that took years of effort by a team of programmers and cost Apple tens of millions in programmer's salaries to develop?
- randylahey 16y ago
  The point is not that it's $4, or $10,000 or $0.25. The point is that now that money has to come from somewhere. This throws up a sizeable obstacle for anyone looking to do development on the platform and will especially hurt FOSS. If you can't see this, I don't really know what to say. Apple literally makes billions of dollars on software, you'd think they'd throw the developers that literally helped build their ecosystem a freaking bone. I suppose that's too much to ask from Apple. Cue the "vote with your wallet", "no one is forcing you to use it" rabble...
  - jedsmith 16y ago
    No, cue the you're assuming you won't get Xcode 4 with Lion rabble. Seriously. Don't jump to conclusions yet. Can you clarify the $5-hurts-FOSS argument? I don't mean to sound crass, but there are people who pay more than $5 for coffee. If a one-time charge of $5 to build OS X versions of your FOSS project is a, as you say, "[sizable] obstacle" to entering FOSS development, that's a genuine surprise to me. Especially since Xcode 3 is still absolutely free. If I were a committer on your project I'd buy it myself and donate it, for crying out loud. They anticipated this, undoubtedly, and put the button right there: "Looking for Xcode 3 because $5 is too much? Here it is!" You're really only paying for the improved GUI. Does your FOSS project use Xcode as its primary development platform, or is it just using the compiler toolchain? This revolt to $5 is absolutely stunning. Even more worth thinking about is that all the commenting about it on HN equates to far more than $5 in billable time...how many copies could the revolting have purchased?
    - cooldeal 16y ago
      The reason that people are pissed is that it's one more annoying hoop to jump through, especially for people without iTunes accounts.What about people kids without credit cards or Paypal? All this for what? A paltry $10 million or so for Apple which is already rolling in tens of bilions of cash(partly thanks to developers, you always see Jobs touting the app count). Is it even worth it for Apple? The company is smacking of greed and squeezing the last dollar these days with all these moves like a forced 30% cut of services and now this, which can damage the ecosystem. >No, cue the you're assuming you won't get Xcode 4 with Lion rabble. That makes it even worse, Apple can't be making more than $5 million from this.
Jarred 16y ago
Nobody should have to pay for development tools when the company profits substantially from the individual developing for their platform. They're going to raise the price even higher as time progresses, simply because they can. Apple is a monopoly within it's own bustling platform, nobody rivals iTunes on the Mac other than Songbird, and few use Songbird. That's a very similar situation with iLife. And then the way apps are mass marketed to people is being directly controlled by Apple as well now with the Mac App Store. Apple sounds a whole lot like Microsoft in the 90's and early 2000's. However, there's a striking difference between them and Apple, Microsoft kept it more open, they focused on the software side of things and just that. Microsoft focused on owning and maintaining the platform, whereas Apple is focusing on being the platform.
akashs 16y ago
I could be wrong, but it sounds like the developer program is free for universities, and xcode is supposed to come free with that. http://developer.apple.com/programs/ios/university/ http://developer.apple.com/programs/ios/university/
- jedsmith 16y ago
  Before anyone says "but this doesn't give you the OS X SDKs!", it's fairly easy for me to get them from the company's iOS developer account. If that's different for this program, I'd be absolutely stunned. There's multiple ways around this, everybody just feels like bitching about $5.
saurik 16y ago
Just so you know, Apple's linker is at least occasionally open source, both ld_classic (from "cctools") and ld64. You can compile your own copies and redistribute those.

by A1kmm 16y ago

damoncali 16y ago

That sounds more like a problem with academia than Apple. Just sayin'.

astrodust 16y ago
When the software costs only a few bucks more than the DVD you could burn it on and warez it from a friend, and a fraction of the price of the USB stick it would fit on, you know you're being cheap.
- bioinformatics 16y ago
  I'm in academia too and if XCode 4 doesn't come with Lion, I would gladly pay from my pocket for it. Imagine that I would put the bureaucracy machine of a university or institute for 5 bucks is ludicrous. Our salaries are lower but we are not below the poverty line.
  - astrodust 16y ago
    I'd hope that in academia your term paper isn't held up waiting for a couple of new white board markers, or a ream of paper because your requisition form wasn't approved. It's somewhat discouraging that Apple is charging for what used to be provided at no cost. Still, if Apple can't make five bucks on a product that other companies sell for hundreds, what hope do any other developers have?
    - bioinformatics 16y ago
      We usually don't have problems with markers or paper, the department has a stock of that. There's no lack of money in academia, just wasteful spending. Wait and see if Lion comes with XCode. Then we can say they are actually charging for it.

ptomato 16y ago

Xcode 4 will still be included for free with the OS, I'm willing to bet, just like previous versions were.

jckarter 16y ago

Every Mac still ships with Xcode on the OS install disc, as do the OS X upgrade discs. Let's wait until Lion comes out before assuming that won't be the case anymore.

electrum 16y ago
The MacBook Air doesn't ship with Xcode.
- dpezely 16y ago
  I have a current model 11.6" Air purchased in January, and Xcode was pre-installed into /Developer. This was a stock machine: walked into Apple Store to buy it. (No special factory config) Compiling SBCL and a few items from MacPorts worked fine, so everything seems consistent with what I've seen on other Macs since 2005.

calloc 16y ago

Xcode 3 is still a free download from http://connect.apple.com/ http://connect.apple.com/ also on the Xcode 4 page it has a link in the bottom right that allows you go to the Xcode 3 download page.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

mmastrac 16y ago

The GCC toolchain can link Mach-O binaries without using any code from Apple. Building GCC cross-compilers like this is a pain, but crosstools takes a bit of that away: http://www.kegel.com/crosstool/ http://www.kegel.com/crosstool/ Basically, you can generate your own binaries and ship them under the GPL. No Apple needed. I'll ask for more info from someone I know who built an OSX cross-compiler under Linux.

wmf 16y ago
Who said anything about cross compiling? It sounds like he'd be fine with regular GCC+binutils. (I don't see anything about Mach-O support in the ld manual, though...)
- mmastrac 16y ago
  I think this would be considered a cross-compiler, even though you are building OSX on OSX. You would be building a version of GCC that targets OSX with a different version of GCC.

kjksf 16y ago

Are you really saying that you can't afford to pay $5 from your own pocket for XCode 4? What price, other than $0, would be acceptable for a tool that took years of effort by a team of programmers and cost Apple tens of millions in programmer's salaries to develop?

randylahey 16y ago
The point is not that it's $4, or $10,000 or $0.25. The point is that now that money has to come from somewhere. This throws up a sizeable obstacle for anyone looking to do development on the platform and will especially hurt FOSS. If you can't see this, I don't really know what to say. Apple literally makes billions of dollars on software, you'd think they'd throw the developers that literally helped build their ecosystem a freaking bone. I suppose that's too much to ask from Apple. Cue the "vote with your wallet", "no one is forcing you to use it" rabble...
- jedsmith 16y ago
  No, cue the you're assuming you won't get Xcode 4 with Lion rabble. Seriously. Don't jump to conclusions yet. Can you clarify the $5-hurts-FOSS argument? I don't mean to sound crass, but there are people who pay more than $5 for coffee. If a one-time charge of $5 to build OS X versions of your FOSS project is a, as you say, "[sizable] obstacle" to entering FOSS development, that's a genuine surprise to me. Especially since Xcode 3 is still absolutely free. If I were a committer on your project I'd buy it myself and donate it, for crying out loud. They anticipated this, undoubtedly, and put the button right there: "Looking for Xcode 3 because $5 is too much? Here it is!" You're really only paying for the improved GUI. Does your FOSS project use Xcode as its primary development platform, or is it just using the compiler toolchain? This revolt to $5 is absolutely stunning. Even more worth thinking about is that all the commenting about it on HN equates to far more than $5 in billable time...how many copies could the revolting have purchased?
  - cooldeal 16y ago
    The reason that people are pissed is that it's one more annoying hoop to jump through, especially for people without iTunes accounts.What about people kids without credit cards or Paypal? All this for what? A paltry $10 million or so for Apple which is already rolling in tens of bilions of cash(partly thanks to developers, you always see Jobs touting the app count). Is it even worth it for Apple? The company is smacking of greed and squeezing the last dollar these days with all these moves like a forced 30% cut of services and now this, which can damage the ecosystem. >No, cue the you're assuming you won't get Xcode 4 with Lion rabble. That makes it even worse, Apple can't be making more than $5 million from this.

Jarred 16y ago

Nobody should have to pay for development tools when the company profits substantially from the individual developing for their platform. They're going to raise the price even higher as time progresses, simply because they can. Apple is a monopoly within it's own bustling platform, nobody rivals iTunes on the Mac other than Songbird, and few use Songbird. That's a very similar situation with iLife. And then the way apps are mass marketed to people is being directly controlled by Apple as well now with the Mac App Store. Apple sounds a whole lot like Microsoft in the 90's and early 2000's. However, there's a striking difference between them and Apple, Microsoft kept it more open, they focused on the software side of things and just that. Microsoft focused on owning and maintaining the platform, whereas Apple is focusing on being the platform.

akashs 16y ago

I could be wrong, but it sounds like the developer program is free for universities, and xcode is supposed to come free with that. http://developer.apple.com/programs/ios/university/ http://developer.apple.com/programs/ios/university/

jedsmith 16y ago
Before anyone says "but this doesn't give you the OS X SDKs!", it's fairly easy for me to get them from the company's iOS developer account. If that's different for this program, I'd be absolutely stunned. There's multiple ways around this, everybody just feels like bitching about $5.

saurik 16y ago

Just so you know, Apple's linker is at least occasionally open source, both ld_classic (from "cctools") and ld64. You can compile your own copies and redistribute those.