4 ms·

> well what is the value add then of paying to physically go to college? You can put on you resume that you were accepted in a selective program, and that you

> well what is the value add then of paying to physically go to college? You can put on you resume that you were accepted in a selective program, and that you were able to complete it. Besides, the actual lectures are only the tip of the iceberg. If you attend in person, you have to do tons of assignments, labs, exams. You also have tutors and professors that supervise, pressure, grade you. You work in collaboration with other students. You have access to internship opportunities or to your professor networks. I once worked through a distributed systems project from MIT. I worked almost full time on it for a couple of weeks. Most of the material was available, but not everything. You certainly don't have the same resources students have. And you don't have the same pressure students have. Also, this project had zero value on my resume. It would be different if MIT could grade it for me, and certify I did well.

zelos 7y ago
>If you attend in person, you have to do tons of assignments, labs, exams Exactly. Even as a self-taught developer, one of my biggest regrets is how little I appreciated the incredible resources I had available at university and didn't really take advantage of or appreciate.
- wolfgke 7y ago
  For me, it rather was "I had so much to do for courses that I had hardly any time to make use of or appreciate the incredible amount of ressources."
- whymauri 7y ago
  Also, a lot of classes are essentially impossible online. Intense lab courses, term-long project courses, and time-sensitive experimentation courses are all screwed. The way classes are coping is interesting: 1. For classes requiring user testing or behavioral experiments, assignments are being processed through mechanical turk. 2. The experimental physics lab is changing from a 'choose-your-own-adventure' model of choosing a final project to a satellite/telemetry/astronomy project. 3. Some classes are providing synthetic datasets or data from previous semesters for lab classes. 4. Some classes are basically finished. It is actually impossible to continue teaching them, so they're purely instructional or seminars, at this point. A lot of these lab classes are required to graduate, too. They also require so many resources that they can only be taught once a year. It's seriously demotivating, especially for passionate hands-on learners. And paying sticker price doesn't help the sting for many students.
  - ghaff 7y ago
    Medium to large lecture classes can probably work pretty well. As can mostly small seminars I would think. Other things are tough or impossible. For example, I had an undergraduate thesis in my major, which required being physically in a lab and having access to a machine shop. In any case, there are lab/project classes throughout a lot of STEM majors that students aren't going to be able to reasonably finish this semester. I don't know how this is being typically handled with everyone having to drop things ~ 1 month into the semester.
- gen220 7y ago
  About halfway through my college experience, I switched gears from extreme attendance-and-attentive-note-taking to extreme self-teaching, out of necessity (I was taking too many classes and working simultaneously, so I didn't have time to attend each lecture each week). Of course, I still did the homework assignments, studied for exams, etc. Except for the occasional "gotchas" where professors say something random in class that shows up on the exam, it didn't adversely impact my GPA, and it saved a ton of time. I think I learned more efficiently on my own, which led to saving a ton of time shuffling from physical location to physical location. It freed up more time for working, exercising, and sleeping. Given this experience, in retrospect, I think the most valuable parts of my education were not necessarily the classroom, but rather: 50%: The (well-written) syllabi. They point out which resources (books, blogs, websites, etc) are worth your time, if you have an interest in the subject. The best ones are filled with opinions, and "optional resources if you want to dive deeper into X". Even the lazily-constructed ones are a great foundation if you have no idea about how to begin learning X. 25%: The classmates and TAs. Oral/written feedback, delivered efficiently and with empathy is not essential, but a great catalyst to development. This one's a bit personality-dependent, for other's it might be higher or lower. 25%: The assignments, projects, and deadline pressure. To learn things, you really need time-spaced practice. Reading is not sufficient. The deadline and grade pressures erode as you get better, but they're invaluable early on. I think that you can get 90% of each of these online, just fine. But that's me! It might require personal conversation for others, but in my experience a good collection of reading and tasks, some form of IRC, and rudimentary deadline pressure are more than sufficient to replace the classroom for self-starting individuals. I think Coursera's relative success proven that case.
  - JadeNB 6y ago
    > 50%: The (well-written) syllabi. They point out which resources (books, blogs, websites, etc) are worth your time, if you have an interest in the subject. The best ones are filled with opinions, and "optional resources if you want to dive deeper into X". Even the lazily-constructed ones are a great foundation if you have no idea about how to begin learning X. Do you have any pointers to online examples of syllabi you found useful? My syllabi are always to the point and focussed on the structure of the class; it's never occurred to me that someone might want to use them as a roadmap for independent learning, and I'd be interested in facilitating that.
tluyben2 7y ago
I did not understand this in the first 2 years of uni; I was in a very easy going high school before uni (this had something to do with my grades as well) as in, I did not have to attend classes, so I was used to just going to the exams. Which was great because I could make money writing software while others were sleeping in class. When I went to uni I just continued that pattern; it alienated me from my peers and as a result I did not like. Until (around 2 years in) I got bored and picked a graduate course (kolmogorov complexity) which could not be completed without attending; it was excellent; very small group (6) and the prof. That changed my ideas a bit ; I still wouldn't go to the auditorium stuff (I have/had (ex death metal band gitarist...) tinnitus; I cannot hear anything in full rooms with people whispering and sound echo-ing anyway, so what's the point). Well recommended; going to those gave me businesspartners + colleagues + funding for my first 'real' company as well.
- eternauta3k 7y ago
  Small classes are the best. I had an intro to the Standard Model class which had 4 students and the teacher... possibly the most enjoyable class I've had. There's no other occasion where a teacher will dedicate so much time to you.
  - xnyan 7y ago
    I had a very intense 6 person class learning Russian 12 hours a day for three months. One of the most incredible experiences of my life.
    - saalweachter 7y ago
      That sounds like one of those experiences where, at least for the first few weeks, you return home and promptly fall asleep, because your brain is too full for anything else.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
ivanhoe 7y ago
And you get to meet a lot of people who will tomorrow be influential in your industry.
gumby 7y ago
> You can put on you resume that you were accepted in a selective program, and that you were able to complete it. BTW via Coursera (perhaps only through white label?) you can enroll at some universities and get an ordinary degree (no qualifying language like “online”, join the alumni association etc). So you can get that benefit from some online programs, though perhaps not the top echelon. Despite that, I agree with you that the realtime meatspace stuff is at least 50% of the value for the higher end schools (say “top” 100, however you define “top”).
MarkMc 7y ago
> Also, this project had zero value on my resume. It would be different if MIT could grade it for me, and certify I did well This is hugely important not just on the CV. The feedback you get from grading helps you understand what mistakes you made, and the prospect of receiving an official pass or failure grade is a big incentive to work hard.

zelos 7y ago

>If you attend in person, you have to do tons of assignments, labs, exams Exactly. Even as a self-taught developer, one of my biggest regrets is how little I appreciated the incredible resources I had available at university and didn't really take advantage of or appreciate.

wolfgke 7y ago
For me, it rather was "I had so much to do for courses that I had hardly any time to make use of or appreciate the incredible amount of ressources."
whymauri 7y ago
Also, a lot of classes are essentially impossible online. Intense lab courses, term-long project courses, and time-sensitive experimentation courses are all screwed. The way classes are coping is interesting: 1. For classes requiring user testing or behavioral experiments, assignments are being processed through mechanical turk. 2. The experimental physics lab is changing from a 'choose-your-own-adventure' model of choosing a final project to a satellite/telemetry/astronomy project. 3. Some classes are providing synthetic datasets or data from previous semesters for lab classes. 4. Some classes are basically finished. It is actually impossible to continue teaching them, so they're purely instructional or seminars, at this point. A lot of these lab classes are required to graduate, too. They also require so many resources that they can only be taught once a year. It's seriously demotivating, especially for passionate hands-on learners. And paying sticker price doesn't help the sting for many students.
- ghaff 7y ago
  Medium to large lecture classes can probably work pretty well. As can mostly small seminars I would think. Other things are tough or impossible. For example, I had an undergraduate thesis in my major, which required being physically in a lab and having access to a machine shop. In any case, there are lab/project classes throughout a lot of STEM majors that students aren't going to be able to reasonably finish this semester. I don't know how this is being typically handled with everyone having to drop things ~ 1 month into the semester.
gen220 7y ago
About halfway through my college experience, I switched gears from extreme attendance-and-attentive-note-taking to extreme self-teaching, out of necessity (I was taking too many classes and working simultaneously, so I didn't have time to attend each lecture each week). Of course, I still did the homework assignments, studied for exams, etc. Except for the occasional "gotchas" where professors say something random in class that shows up on the exam, it didn't adversely impact my GPA, and it saved a ton of time. I think I learned more efficiently on my own, which led to saving a ton of time shuffling from physical location to physical location. It freed up more time for working, exercising, and sleeping. Given this experience, in retrospect, I think the most valuable parts of my education were not necessarily the classroom, but rather: 50%: The (well-written) syllabi. They point out which resources (books, blogs, websites, etc) are worth your time, if you have an interest in the subject. The best ones are filled with opinions, and "optional resources if you want to dive deeper into X". Even the lazily-constructed ones are a great foundation if you have no idea about how to begin learning X. 25%: The classmates and TAs. Oral/written feedback, delivered efficiently and with empathy is not essential, but a great catalyst to development. This one's a bit personality-dependent, for other's it might be higher or lower. 25%: The assignments, projects, and deadline pressure. To learn things, you really need time-spaced practice. Reading is not sufficient. The deadline and grade pressures erode as you get better, but they're invaluable early on. I think that you can get 90% of each of these online, just fine. But that's me! It might require personal conversation for others, but in my experience a good collection of reading and tasks, some form of IRC, and rudimentary deadline pressure are more than sufficient to replace the classroom for self-starting individuals. I think Coursera's relative success proven that case.
- JadeNB 6y ago
  > 50%: The (well-written) syllabi. They point out which resources (books, blogs, websites, etc) are worth your time, if you have an interest in the subject. The best ones are filled with opinions, and "optional resources if you want to dive deeper into X". Even the lazily-constructed ones are a great foundation if you have no idea about how to begin learning X. Do you have any pointers to online examples of syllabi you found useful? My syllabi are always to the point and focussed on the structure of the class; it's never occurred to me that someone might want to use them as a roadmap for independent learning, and I'd be interested in facilitating that.

tluyben2 7y ago

I did not understand this in the first 2 years of uni; I was in a very easy going high school before uni (this had something to do with my grades as well) as in, I did not have to attend classes, so I was used to just going to the exams. Which was great because I could make money writing software while others were sleeping in class. When I went to uni I just continued that pattern; it alienated me from my peers and as a result I did not like. Until (around 2 years in) I got bored and picked a graduate course (kolmogorov complexity) which could not be completed without attending; it was excellent; very small group (6) and the prof. That changed my ideas a bit ; I still wouldn't go to the auditorium stuff (I have/had (ex death metal band gitarist...) tinnitus; I cannot hear anything in full rooms with people whispering and sound echo-ing anyway, so what's the point). Well recommended; going to those gave me businesspartners + colleagues + funding for my first 'real' company as well.

eternauta3k 7y ago
Small classes are the best. I had an intro to the Standard Model class which had 4 students and the teacher... possibly the most enjoyable class I've had. There's no other occasion where a teacher will dedicate so much time to you.
- xnyan 7y ago
  I had a very intense 6 person class learning Russian 12 hours a day for three months. One of the most incredible experiences of my life.
  - saalweachter 7y ago
    That sounds like one of those experiences where, at least for the first few weeks, you return home and promptly fall asleep, because your brain is too full for anything else.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

ivanhoe 7y ago

And you get to meet a lot of people who will tomorrow be influential in your industry.

gumby 7y ago

> You can put on you resume that you were accepted in a selective program, and that you were able to complete it. BTW via Coursera (perhaps only through white label?) you can enroll at some universities and get an ordinary degree (no qualifying language like “online”, join the alumni association etc). So you can get that benefit from some online programs, though perhaps not the top echelon. Despite that, I agree with you that the realtime meatspace stuff is at least 50% of the value for the higher end schools (say “top” 100, however you define “top”).

MarkMc 7y ago

> Also, this project had zero value on my resume. It would be different if MIT could grade it for me, and certify I did well This is hugely important not just on the CV. The feedback you get from grading helps you understand what mistakes you made, and the prospect of receiving an official pass or failure grade is a big incentive to work hard.