7 ms·

If I go into a restaurant and order pork, but get served beef, I have a right as a customer to complain. It doesn't matter whether beef is in some way better th

If I go into a restaurant and order pork, but get served beef, I have a right as a customer to complain. It doesn't matter whether beef is in some way better than pork, or whether other customers are perfectly happy with beef, or whether I eat beef myself at other times. I order pork, I expect pork. If the restaurant can't serve me pork, for example because they've run out, then the right answer is still not to just assume I'll be ok with beef instead. I don't see how "this other thing is of equal value" (which is debatable in itself) is a defense to a claim that I'm not getting the product or service that I signed up for?

pfortuny 7y ago
This is even worse because at least in a restaurant you have not paid yet!
- sfj 7y ago
  Some restaurants have you pay ahead of time.
unishark 7y ago
This analogy can still go either way. You ate half the meal. Then there they had to kick you out to finish at home with a doggy bag. You're losing out on some ambience, but the thing you showed up to achieve will be achieved. Note that there are already refunds for at least some of the in-person stuff such as dorms and gym access. So were already in a position of compromise and partial refund. It's just an argument of what that number should be.
- wccrawford 7y ago
  The first half of the meal, the portion they ate, was what they paid for. The meal was suddenly changed halfway through, but there was no option to stop paying. And in this case, the first half of the meal doesn't mean anything without the second half.
  - itronitron 7y ago
    Like if you went to a 'make-your-own-pizza' place and were forced to leave the building by a fire marshal after having placed your pizza, with custom toppings, in the oven.
    - deegles 7y ago
      Also, the pizza cost $25,000.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - wolfgke 7y ago
    > The meal was suddenly changed halfway through, but there was no option to stop paying. Can't the respective student stop paying by quitting the university (of course, he will leave without a degree)?
    - ghaff 7y ago
      They have presumably already paid for this semester. That's the issue. They paid for one educational experience and environment and it's been switched to one that is presumably lower value in many respects.
- NullPrefix 7y ago
  Better analogy would be if you go to drink overpriced coffee in a fancy place, but midway the drinking they have to unexpectedly close the shop so they take your porcelain cup and pour the leftovers to a takeaway cup and usher you out to drink the leftovers in the alley.
- Olreich 7y ago
  More like you ordered a three course meal, they brought out the appetizer, then kicked you out with a doggy bag of the main course, and told you they’d messenger you dessert later.
- red_admiral 7y ago
  > but the thing you showed up to achieve will be achieved That's going to be the sticking point, I guess. You could say that giving me beef instead of pork achieves the aim of feeding me just as well. I might disagree (in this analogy, imagine I'm a Hindu).
bachmeier 7y ago
This argument doesn't really work. It appears that the college students want the credits and they want to finish out the semester, but they want a refund of an arbitrary amount of money. If you order pork and they bring out beef, it's reasonable to not pay for the beef if the restaurant ran out of pork, but it's not reasonable to eat the beef (which costs more) and then demand 40% off the price of pork because it's not what you wanted. There are two critical points to keep in mind: cost of instruction increased, and this was something the schools couldn't control. A refund for the last few weeks of the semester with no credit makes sense (the students can withdraw and get a prorated refund). An arbitrary refund when the students have access to the material and instructors and get the same credits is not reasonable.
- leetcrew 7y ago
  if you really want to force the restaurant analogy, you could say it's sort of like when the restaurant is having a bad night. the service is really slow and some of the dishes don't come out quite right. if it's just a fluke, a good restaurant will comp most of the meal without you even having to ask. the problem with this analogy is that a restaurant just isn't very similar to a college. it's really important to a restaurant not to lose a good customer over a single bad experience, and it doesn't cost them much to comp a single meal (it costs even less to give credit towards a future meal). a college doesn't have to care that much about any particular student, but giving refunds causes serious cashflow issues. that said, I don't think what the students are asking is necessarily unreasonable. if you go to a cheap state school and you're still getting the degree, I'd say you don't have much to complain about. if you're paying $60k for world-class facilities and face time with world-class researchers, I'd say the institution should do at least something to make you whole.
  - bachmeier 7y ago
    > when the restaurant is having a bad night A "bad night" because it was hit by a tornado. Your wording implies the universities did something wrong. It's not like they could have done anything differently. They weren't responsible for the pandemic and they were legally obligated to shut down. > I'd say the institution should do at least something to make you whole I'd say it is unreasonable. They're not asking for a generic "something to make them whole". They want all the benefits plus a healthy refund. I don't know what the legal basis for their argument would be. Almost certainly they have lawyers who expect bad publicity to force universities to pay. That kind of rubs me the wrong way. Disclosure: I work at a university.

pfortuny 7y ago

This is even worse because at least in a restaurant you have not paid yet!

sfj 7y ago
Some restaurants have you pay ahead of time.

unishark 7y ago

This analogy can still go either way. You ate half the meal. Then there they had to kick you out to finish at home with a doggy bag. You're losing out on some ambience, but the thing you showed up to achieve will be achieved. Note that there are already refunds for at least some of the in-person stuff such as dorms and gym access. So were already in a position of compromise and partial refund. It's just an argument of what that number should be.

wccrawford 7y ago
The first half of the meal, the portion they ate, was what they paid for. The meal was suddenly changed halfway through, but there was no option to stop paying. And in this case, the first half of the meal doesn't mean anything without the second half.
- itronitron 7y ago
  Like if you went to a 'make-your-own-pizza' place and were forced to leave the building by a fire marshal after having placed your pizza, with custom toppings, in the oven.
  - deegles 7y ago
    Also, the pizza cost $25,000.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- wolfgke 7y ago
  > The meal was suddenly changed halfway through, but there was no option to stop paying. Can't the respective student stop paying by quitting the university (of course, he will leave without a degree)?
  - ghaff 7y ago
    They have presumably already paid for this semester. That's the issue. They paid for one educational experience and environment and it's been switched to one that is presumably lower value in many respects.
NullPrefix 7y ago
Better analogy would be if you go to drink overpriced coffee in a fancy place, but midway the drinking they have to unexpectedly close the shop so they take your porcelain cup and pour the leftovers to a takeaway cup and usher you out to drink the leftovers in the alley.
Olreich 7y ago
More like you ordered a three course meal, they brought out the appetizer, then kicked you out with a doggy bag of the main course, and told you they’d messenger you dessert later.
red_admiral 7y ago
> but the thing you showed up to achieve will be achieved That's going to be the sticking point, I guess. You could say that giving me beef instead of pork achieves the aim of feeding me just as well. I might disagree (in this analogy, imagine I'm a Hindu).

bachmeier 7y ago

This argument doesn't really work. It appears that the college students want the credits and they want to finish out the semester, but they want a refund of an arbitrary amount of money. If you order pork and they bring out beef, it's reasonable to not pay for the beef if the restaurant ran out of pork, but it's not reasonable to eat the beef (which costs more) and then demand 40% off the price of pork because it's not what you wanted. There are two critical points to keep in mind: cost of instruction increased, and this was something the schools couldn't control. A refund for the last few weeks of the semester with no credit makes sense (the students can withdraw and get a prorated refund). An arbitrary refund when the students have access to the material and instructors and get the same credits is not reasonable.

leetcrew 7y ago
if you really want to force the restaurant analogy, you could say it's sort of like when the restaurant is having a bad night. the service is really slow and some of the dishes don't come out quite right. if it's just a fluke, a good restaurant will comp most of the meal without you even having to ask. the problem with this analogy is that a restaurant just isn't very similar to a college. it's really important to a restaurant not to lose a good customer over a single bad experience, and it doesn't cost them much to comp a single meal (it costs even less to give credit towards a future meal). a college doesn't have to care that much about any particular student, but giving refunds causes serious cashflow issues. that said, I don't think what the students are asking is necessarily unreasonable. if you go to a cheap state school and you're still getting the degree, I'd say you don't have much to complain about. if you're paying $60k for world-class facilities and face time with world-class researchers, I'd say the institution should do at least something to make you whole.
- bachmeier 7y ago
  > when the restaurant is having a bad night A "bad night" because it was hit by a tornado. Your wording implies the universities did something wrong. It's not like they could have done anything differently. They weren't responsible for the pandemic and they were legally obligated to shut down. > I'd say the institution should do at least something to make you whole I'd say it is unreasonable. They're not asking for a generic "something to make them whole". They want all the benefits plus a healthy refund. I don't know what the legal basis for their argument would be. Almost certainly they have lawyers who expect bad publicity to force universities to pay. That kind of rubs me the wrong way. Disclosure: I work at a university.