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I think you can trust that it's the real reason, because either way it's going to make him radioactive for the next gig like this. No large company keeps its h

I think you can trust that it's the real reason, because either way it's going to make him radioactive for the next gig like this. No large company keeps its hands completely clean. Defense contracts, Chinese censorship, exploiting addiction, anticompetitive behaviour, sexism, the list goes on. Having a public figure at your company that's willing to martyr themselves to push the knife in just a little deeper when you have a scandal is a dumb idea.

wegs 6y ago
He's also 64. That's near retirement age, and I imagine he can afford to retire early.
- simonebrunozzi 6y ago
  I wouldn't dismiss how hard it can be to quit a job you love, just because you're 64. I know people that love doing what they do well in their late 70s, and job satisfaction for them is way more important than any monetary aspect.
  - Symbiote 6y ago
    There might be charities, non-profits or other organizations that would appreciate his skills. I remember my dad spent all of about two weeks "retired" (resigned in protest in similar circumstances, but from a staff of maybe 100) before finding a part-time job at a local charity he liked.
- labster 6y ago
  He has a few reasons to retire -- and a few reasons not to retire. And he laid them out for us about a year and a half ago: https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2018/10/25/On-Retirement https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2018/10/25/On-Retire... > Progressive friends, people whose opinions I respect, give me shit about working for Amazon. I claim that the problem is capitalism, flaccid labor laws, and lame antitrust enforcement, not any particular company; maybe I’m right. And now he's basically admitting he was wrong. Impressive.
  - Ygg2 6y ago
    Both his friends and him could be right. If you attempt to survive in a caustic environment, you will become caustic yourself. Show me one corporation that doesn't have some scandal in it. Or even better a multinational corporation. If you play by the "rules" and don't anger anyone, you're going to lose to everyone not playing by them.
    - granshaw 6y ago
      Never underestimate how quickly you will become like the environment you spend 8+ hours every weekday in
      - Ygg2 6y ago
        I meant on a more global scale. Each corporation through competition or acquisition of people became evil.
  - throw0101a 6y ago
    > And now he's basically admitting he was wrong. Impressive. From today's post: > Firing whistleblowers isn’t just a side-effect of macroeconomic forces, nor is it intrinsic to the function of free markets. It’s evidence of a vein of toxicity running through the company culture. I choose neither to serve nor drink that poison. In Ontario, Canada, which has a lot of auto plants, there's actually a controlled experiment of sorts that is going on: the unions are in the GM, Ford, and Chrysler plants since forever. Meanwhile they've been trying to get into the Toyota/Lexus plant for a long time and the workers always vote 'no'. Same industry, same geographic area and culture, different results. Turns out that if you respect your employees they often respect you back.
    - tsco77 6y ago
      Could you expand on that example?
    - hmk99 6y ago
      Yes it's true. But Toyota has a very unique culture in which management are more like coaches, and every single employee on the line is expected to continuously introduce improvements in the assembly line. In such an environment, the employees are highly empowered. So it is natural that they would resist any attempt to prevent direct communication between them and management. When a union takes charge it is legally not permissible for workers to directly talk to management and vice-versa; they have to go through the union.
- GrumpyNl 6y ago
  Its funny that 64 is now considered retiring early.
  - poulsbohemian 6y ago
    It’s because most of us won’t get to retire, so much as will have some event cause us to no longer be working.
chinathrow 6y ago
> Having a public figure at your company that's willing to martyr themselves to push the knife in just a little deeper when you have a scandal is a dumb idea. Having a toxic work culture in warehouses seems a dumb idea too.
- stuaxo 6y ago
  To me, toxic work culture is having a boss that's an arsehole - it doesn't begin to cover the amazon warehouses where people are pissing in bottles to maintain the targets they need to keep their jobs.
underdeserver 6y ago
I'm not sure he's radioactive. He probably saw some grey-area stuff being done, everyone who's had a position of responsibility in such a large organization for any serious amount of time has. He didn't quit over those. He quit over what seems to me to be flagrant disrespect for basic human rights. I want to hope most companies who can make use of a person of Tim's skills - and those are few and far between - do not condone that kind of behavior and would appreciate him for it, not pass him over.
- CapitalistCartr 6y ago
  Mega-corp executives aren't known for such subtle, sophisticated thinking.
- readwind 6y ago
  He's not by far radioactive, and he's got tons of friend, including Tom Waits, and etc, he's got tons of contacts, and ephemerality my dudes, he can get jobs. You know. But this was a f good post. Yeah. He's friends with Tom Waits, dudes, and tons of other people, he'll get jobs like hell. Brave move though. I love you Tim Bray been reading the blog for ages it seems. Tim things up. Good luck onwards.
  - philipov 6y ago
    Tom Waits the musician?
    - readwind 6y ago
      As far as I've picked up, yes, but, not that matters in the direct software industries. Tim's got tons of connections though so I doubt he will starve. Tom Waits while Tim Brays. Check out your email signature Tim Bray. Good luck onwards EDIT: I might be totally wrong but I read somewhere he's friends with yes that guy.
netsharc 6y ago
I've heard of his name, after reading this essay I looked him up on Wikipedia; impressive resume (TL;DR: specced XML, ATOM, JSON). But Wikipedia also mentions him being arrested protesting an oil pipeline. It seems to me he's always been a man who's looking out for the environment, and for the community. Not just to maximise his individual dollar amount "ROI" in prestigious jobs.
- throwaway49872 6y ago
  > specced XML, ATOM, JSON Urgh. Not exactly excellent engineering. Downvote me all you want but that's a pretty low bar.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - netsharc 6y ago
    I'm guessing he has other things in resume that got him hired at Sun, Google, and Amazon (as VP of Engineering and Distinguished Engineer)...
donquichotte 6y ago
A company that hires him signals that it has nothing to hide, so I think this might just work out fine for him.
- reitzensteinm 6y ago
  That signal reaches a few industry insiders paying close attention. This will probably make the NY Times. They're many orders of magnitude apart in terms of impact. I believe Tim is making a real sacrifice here, which is why it's so rare and impressive.
  - pas 6y ago
    I think you're underestimating the "wokeness" of industry. Especially how much a token good guy is worth, when they are scarce. And overestimating his sacrifice. His net worth is at least 9M USD. That's already enough so he doesn't need to work a minute more in his life and do almost everything he could think of.
    - xchaotic 6y ago
      Even if that is true, contrast that with Bezos who doesn’t want to sacrifice 1% of his worth to protect health of workers.
stefs 6y ago
it goes both ways though: another company might hire tbray not only for his skills, but also to signal potential employees they're taking the health and safety of their workforce seriously. at least i hope this might be the case.
rbanffy 6y ago
> it's going to make him radioactive for the next gig like this. I'd gladly be radioactive for companies that fire whistleblowers and worker rights activists.
krig 6y ago
What an utter disaster this society is if having a conscience makes you "radioactive" to employers. I can only aspire to be as radioactive as possible, then.
- thundergolfer 6y ago
  Speaks volumes doesn't it.
- scruffups 6y ago
  Count me in.
- marvindanig 6y ago
  > What an utter disaster this society is if having a conscience makes you "radioactive" to employers... Exactly what this whole conversation made me feel.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- YayamiOmate 6y ago
  Well, this is interesting because, subset of people deciding one is "radioactive" is very small compared to whole society, but in general the society is selforganized. There is no oppression. People have money and power because other people give it to them. I guess people collecitvely want to have black characters in power to do the dirty, making their live easier overall. I don't see other reason "western" societies don't change people in power when they actually can.
  - scruffups 6y ago
    << society is selforganized. There is no oppression.>> Self-oppression? Sure. But it does not mean that oppression doesn't exist. It's just that it is self caused, and self here refers to society as a whole. Oppression exists whether it's self-inflicted or inflicted by one/many upon another/others.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
cstross 6y ago
He may not be planning on a "next gig" — he's 64, so edging close to retirement. I'm assuming as a corporate VP at that age he's probably got his pension sorted: he probably feels able to make a principled stand in a way that, say, a 34 year old (or a 44 year old) couldn't. Even so, good on him for speaking out.
- GateCrasher 6y ago
  I just checked his Wikipedia entry. He will have to try a bit harder to become "radio-active" for potential employers...
- lopis 6y ago
  > he's 64 That definitely puts things in a different perspective. It can't really damage his career much when his career is 20+ years old. At this point, if he doesn't have his own side gig, lots of companies, big and small, would still want him.
  - phatfish 6y ago
    It also shows how brave those who were younger and ended up getting fired rather than resigning were.
- StavrosK 6y ago
  Unless there's a company that is actually decent, and prides itself on having an exec that would quit on the first sign of a misdeed. "See? You can trust us, otherwise Tim Bray wouldn't still be working here."
  - ignoramous 6y ago
    I don't think a single trivial misdeed but really a culmination of things leading up to it and the scale of it all that broke the camel's back.
skc 6y ago
re, Bray being radioactive, on the contrary his appointment would be a PR coup for a large enough Amazon competitor. I'm thinking Microsoft or even Google (again)
flurdy 6y ago
> it's going to make him radioactive for the next gig No. A couple of more questionable companies may choose to stay away, but the majority of companies would love to have Tim on board. Even if just for a few years or part-time. Most employees and owners think of themselves and their company as good so will not be concerned with having a man of moral as their employee. Not that they all are 100% "good" but most think they are. Also, Tim Bray is well respected and most companies know they can gain a lot by him helping out, and they know that.
- forgotmylogin2 6y ago
  This assumes many employers will consider him a "man of moral" for doing this. I don't think that's cut and dry. The business owners I know frequently complain about how difficult it is to fire underperforming employees. Trying to ensure they're legally protected from lawsuits requires keeping the inadequate employee on payroll for months in order to collect documentation that shows the employee is not fulfilling their contract. My guess is most business owners would be loathe to hire anybody with a history of making this process even more difficult for their employer. Merely quitting would be one thing, but when you publicly excoriate your former employer like this (including allegations of racism and sexism without evidence), you become a massive liability to future employers. Quite frankly, I would never hire this man if I were a business owner. And the fact that the leadership of a left-leaning company like Amazon also seems to disagree with him makes me think I'm probably not alone.
zeveb 6y ago
> No large company keeps its hands completely clean. Defense contracts, Chinese censorship, exploiting addiction, anticompetitive behaviour, sexism, the list goes on. One of these is not like the others. What in the world is dirty about working on national defence? It's a positive thing, IMHO.
- blaser-waffle 6y ago
  Sounds like someone needs to do a little research as to the military industrial complex. A lot of respected people, to include Eisenhower, or a Marine General who won 2 x Medals of Honor, have cautioned against trusting the defense industry. Start with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket
- michaelt 6y ago
  Well, a lot of engineers - those making bridges and passenger airliners and cars and phones - are taught that it's bad if their products kill people. Engineers at companies that sell missiles to Saudi Arabia have to take a more nuanced view, or a more laid-back view. As these are not universal, they have to be selected for at hiring time.
- zentiggr 6y ago
  Having served, I can say pretty solidly that a huge chunk of the defense budget is pocket lining, contract padding, the DoD version of pork barreling, you name it. The careful planning to ensure that every possible Congressional district gets a subcontract under the F-35 program is a blatant signal as to how this all operates. The part of the DoD that actually gets things done despite the red tape, obstructionists, career ass sitters, grifters and outright thieves, has my eternal respect. That our military manages to project power even though there are ten thousand competing agendas is a miracle of the modern day. former FT2(SS)
adamc 6y ago
Wouldn't there be a potential opposite effect? Hiring someone like that helps establish (to techies, anyhow) that you are one of the "good guys"? There are bound to be employers who would like to be seen that way.
asah 6y ago
No, and not just because he's famous: the tech business is very big and had insatiable demand for talented people.
stevespang 6y ago
well said.
philjohn 6y ago
Yes, but he's Tim Bray and has an amazing track record behind him, I'm sure he'll have people beating down his door to make offers to come onboard. He's also 64, not far from retirement age, he may not want to work again and instead devote himself to passion projects and being with friends and family, and who could blame him?

wegs 6y ago

He's also 64. That's near retirement age, and I imagine he can afford to retire early.

simonebrunozzi 6y ago
I wouldn't dismiss how hard it can be to quit a job you love, just because you're 64. I know people that love doing what they do well in their late 70s, and job satisfaction for them is way more important than any monetary aspect.
- Symbiote 6y ago
  There might be charities, non-profits or other organizations that would appreciate his skills. I remember my dad spent all of about two weeks "retired" (resigned in protest in similar circumstances, but from a staff of maybe 100) before finding a part-time job at a local charity he liked.
labster 6y ago
He has a few reasons to retire -- and a few reasons not to retire. And he laid them out for us about a year and a half ago: https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2018/10/25/On-Retirement https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2018/10/25/On-Retire... > Progressive friends, people whose opinions I respect, give me shit about working for Amazon. I claim that the problem is capitalism, flaccid labor laws, and lame antitrust enforcement, not any particular company; maybe I’m right. And now he's basically admitting he was wrong. Impressive.
- Ygg2 6y ago
  Both his friends and him could be right. If you attempt to survive in a caustic environment, you will become caustic yourself. Show me one corporation that doesn't have some scandal in it. Or even better a multinational corporation. If you play by the "rules" and don't anger anyone, you're going to lose to everyone not playing by them.
  - granshaw 6y ago
    Never underestimate how quickly you will become like the environment you spend 8+ hours every weekday in
    - Ygg2 6y ago
      I meant on a more global scale. Each corporation through competition or acquisition of people became evil.
- throw0101a 6y ago
  > And now he's basically admitting he was wrong. Impressive. From today's post: > Firing whistleblowers isn’t just a side-effect of macroeconomic forces, nor is it intrinsic to the function of free markets. It’s evidence of a vein of toxicity running through the company culture. I choose neither to serve nor drink that poison. In Ontario, Canada, which has a lot of auto plants, there's actually a controlled experiment of sorts that is going on: the unions are in the GM, Ford, and Chrysler plants since forever. Meanwhile they've been trying to get into the Toyota/Lexus plant for a long time and the workers always vote 'no'. Same industry, same geographic area and culture, different results. Turns out that if you respect your employees they often respect you back.
  - tsco77 6y ago
    Could you expand on that example?
  - hmk99 6y ago
    Yes it's true. But Toyota has a very unique culture in which management are more like coaches, and every single employee on the line is expected to continuously introduce improvements in the assembly line. In such an environment, the employees are highly empowered. So it is natural that they would resist any attempt to prevent direct communication between them and management. When a union takes charge it is legally not permissible for workers to directly talk to management and vice-versa; they have to go through the union.
GrumpyNl 6y ago
Its funny that 64 is now considered retiring early.
- poulsbohemian 6y ago
  It’s because most of us won’t get to retire, so much as will have some event cause us to no longer be working.

chinathrow 6y ago

> Having a public figure at your company that's willing to martyr themselves to push the knife in just a little deeper when you have a scandal is a dumb idea. Having a toxic work culture in warehouses seems a dumb idea too.

stuaxo 6y ago
To me, toxic work culture is having a boss that's an arsehole - it doesn't begin to cover the amazon warehouses where people are pissing in bottles to maintain the targets they need to keep their jobs.

underdeserver 6y ago

I'm not sure he's radioactive. He probably saw some grey-area stuff being done, everyone who's had a position of responsibility in such a large organization for any serious amount of time has. He didn't quit over those. He quit over what seems to me to be flagrant disrespect for basic human rights. I want to hope most companies who can make use of a person of Tim's skills - and those are few and far between - do not condone that kind of behavior and would appreciate him for it, not pass him over.

CapitalistCartr 6y ago
Mega-corp executives aren't known for such subtle, sophisticated thinking.
readwind 6y ago
He's not by far radioactive, and he's got tons of friend, including Tom Waits, and etc, he's got tons of contacts, and ephemerality my dudes, he can get jobs. You know. But this was a f good post. Yeah. He's friends with Tom Waits, dudes, and tons of other people, he'll get jobs like hell. Brave move though. I love you Tim Bray been reading the blog for ages it seems. Tim things up. Good luck onwards.
- philipov 6y ago
  Tom Waits the musician?
  - readwind 6y ago
    As far as I've picked up, yes, but, not that matters in the direct software industries. Tim's got tons of connections though so I doubt he will starve. Tom Waits while Tim Brays. Check out your email signature Tim Bray. Good luck onwards EDIT: I might be totally wrong but I read somewhere he's friends with yes that guy.

netsharc 6y ago

I've heard of his name, after reading this essay I looked him up on Wikipedia; impressive resume (TL;DR: specced XML, ATOM, JSON). But Wikipedia also mentions him being arrested protesting an oil pipeline. It seems to me he's always been a man who's looking out for the environment, and for the community. Not just to maximise his individual dollar amount "ROI" in prestigious jobs.

throwaway49872 6y ago
> specced XML, ATOM, JSON Urgh. Not exactly excellent engineering. Downvote me all you want but that's a pretty low bar.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- netsharc 6y ago
  I'm guessing he has other things in resume that got him hired at Sun, Google, and Amazon (as VP of Engineering and Distinguished Engineer)...

donquichotte 6y ago

A company that hires him signals that it has nothing to hide, so I think this might just work out fine for him.

reitzensteinm 6y ago
That signal reaches a few industry insiders paying close attention. This will probably make the NY Times. They're many orders of magnitude apart in terms of impact. I believe Tim is making a real sacrifice here, which is why it's so rare and impressive.
- pas 6y ago
  I think you're underestimating the "wokeness" of industry. Especially how much a token good guy is worth, when they are scarce. And overestimating his sacrifice. His net worth is at least 9M USD. That's already enough so he doesn't need to work a minute more in his life and do almost everything he could think of.
  - xchaotic 6y ago
    Even if that is true, contrast that with Bezos who doesn’t want to sacrifice 1% of his worth to protect health of workers.

stefs 6y ago

it goes both ways though: another company might hire tbray not only for his skills, but also to signal potential employees they're taking the health and safety of their workforce seriously. at least i hope this might be the case.

rbanffy 6y ago

> it's going to make him radioactive for the next gig like this. I'd gladly be radioactive for companies that fire whistleblowers and worker rights activists.

krig 6y ago

What an utter disaster this society is if having a conscience makes you "radioactive" to employers. I can only aspire to be as radioactive as possible, then.

thundergolfer 6y ago
Speaks volumes doesn't it.
scruffups 6y ago
Count me in.
marvindanig 6y ago
> What an utter disaster this society is if having a conscience makes you "radioactive" to employers... Exactly what this whole conversation made me feel.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
YayamiOmate 6y ago
Well, this is interesting because, subset of people deciding one is "radioactive" is very small compared to whole society, but in general the society is selforganized. There is no oppression. People have money and power because other people give it to them. I guess people collecitvely want to have black characters in power to do the dirty, making their live easier overall. I don't see other reason "western" societies don't change people in power when they actually can.
- scruffups 6y ago
  << society is selforganized. There is no oppression.>> Self-oppression? Sure. But it does not mean that oppression doesn't exist. It's just that it is self caused, and self here refers to society as a whole. Oppression exists whether it's self-inflicted or inflicted by one/many upon another/others.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

cstross 6y ago

He may not be planning on a "next gig" — he's 64, so edging close to retirement. I'm assuming as a corporate VP at that age he's probably got his pension sorted: he probably feels able to make a principled stand in a way that, say, a 34 year old (or a 44 year old) couldn't. Even so, good on him for speaking out.

GateCrasher 6y ago
I just checked his Wikipedia entry. He will have to try a bit harder to become "radio-active" for potential employers...
lopis 6y ago
> he's 64 That definitely puts things in a different perspective. It can't really damage his career much when his career is 20+ years old. At this point, if he doesn't have his own side gig, lots of companies, big and small, would still want him.
- phatfish 6y ago
  It also shows how brave those who were younger and ended up getting fired rather than resigning were.
StavrosK 6y ago
Unless there's a company that is actually decent, and prides itself on having an exec that would quit on the first sign of a misdeed. "See? You can trust us, otherwise Tim Bray wouldn't still be working here."
- ignoramous 6y ago
  I don't think a single trivial misdeed but really a culmination of things leading up to it and the scale of it all that broke the camel's back.

skc 6y ago

re, Bray being radioactive, on the contrary his appointment would be a PR coup for a large enough Amazon competitor. I'm thinking Microsoft or even Google (again)

flurdy 6y ago

> it's going to make him radioactive for the next gig No. A couple of more questionable companies may choose to stay away, but the majority of companies would love to have Tim on board. Even if just for a few years or part-time. Most employees and owners think of themselves and their company as good so will not be concerned with having a man of moral as their employee. Not that they all are 100% "good" but most think they are. Also, Tim Bray is well respected and most companies know they can gain a lot by him helping out, and they know that.

forgotmylogin2 6y ago
This assumes many employers will consider him a "man of moral" for doing this. I don't think that's cut and dry. The business owners I know frequently complain about how difficult it is to fire underperforming employees. Trying to ensure they're legally protected from lawsuits requires keeping the inadequate employee on payroll for months in order to collect documentation that shows the employee is not fulfilling their contract. My guess is most business owners would be loathe to hire anybody with a history of making this process even more difficult for their employer. Merely quitting would be one thing, but when you publicly excoriate your former employer like this (including allegations of racism and sexism without evidence), you become a massive liability to future employers. Quite frankly, I would never hire this man if I were a business owner. And the fact that the leadership of a left-leaning company like Amazon also seems to disagree with him makes me think I'm probably not alone.

zeveb 6y ago

> No large company keeps its hands completely clean. Defense contracts, Chinese censorship, exploiting addiction, anticompetitive behaviour, sexism, the list goes on. One of these is not like the others. What in the world is dirty about working on national defence? It's a positive thing, IMHO.

blaser-waffle 6y ago
Sounds like someone needs to do a little research as to the military industrial complex. A lot of respected people, to include Eisenhower, or a Marine General who won 2 x Medals of Honor, have cautioned against trusting the defense industry. Start with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket
michaelt 6y ago
Well, a lot of engineers - those making bridges and passenger airliners and cars and phones - are taught that it's bad if their products kill people. Engineers at companies that sell missiles to Saudi Arabia have to take a more nuanced view, or a more laid-back view. As these are not universal, they have to be selected for at hiring time.
zentiggr 6y ago
Having served, I can say pretty solidly that a huge chunk of the defense budget is pocket lining, contract padding, the DoD version of pork barreling, you name it. The careful planning to ensure that every possible Congressional district gets a subcontract under the F-35 program is a blatant signal as to how this all operates. The part of the DoD that actually gets things done despite the red tape, obstructionists, career ass sitters, grifters and outright thieves, has my eternal respect. That our military manages to project power even though there are ten thousand competing agendas is a miracle of the modern day. former FT2(SS)

adamc 6y ago

Wouldn't there be a potential opposite effect? Hiring someone like that helps establish (to techies, anyhow) that you are one of the "good guys"? There are bound to be employers who would like to be seen that way.

asah 6y ago

No, and not just because he's famous: the tech business is very big and had insatiable demand for talented people.

stevespang 6y ago

well said.

philjohn 6y ago

Yes, but he's Tim Bray and has an amazing track record behind him, I'm sure he'll have people beating down his door to make offers to come onboard. He's also 64, not far from retirement age, he may not want to work again and instead devote himself to passion projects and being with friends and family, and who could blame him?