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But that's not actually how it worked out. Gay marriage didn't go from an unpopular stance to a popular one throughout the 2000s by displays like this. If anyth

by knzhou 6y ago

But that's not actually how it worked out. Gay marriage didn't go from an unpopular stance to a popular one throughout the 2000s by displays like this. If anything, they were used as ammunition by people strongly against gay marriage in order to slow the change in public opinion.

AnthonyMouse 6y ago
https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/07/08/gay-rites-are-civil-rites/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/07/08/gay-rites-are-civil-ri... First you show the world you exist and convince your friends it's worth trying to change things, then you convince the moderates, then you win the fight, then you wait for your bitter enemies to die because they'll never be convinced but at least their kids are open to new ideas. Pissing off your bitter enemies can be hard to avoid and still get the job done.
- knzhou 6y ago
  But this article is making my exact point. By the time gay marriage was actually gaining acceptance, the largest pride parades had become as tame as 4th of July celebrations, with SF pride marching with the police, the mayor, and Google employees. They're completely different from their predecessors, like the Stonewall riots.
  - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
    Because it's a different stage of the fight. You don't start off having a parade with the mayor in it because the mayor won't give you the time of day until your movement is big enough to be taken seriously, which starts with getting noticed and getting out the base. Being bland and studious doesn't do that. And the parades are still full of weirdos, but they won, so now it's okay.
  - zozbot234 6y ago
    The point stands that even these seemingly "queer", radically expressed ideas clearly became a lot tamer, less insolently-stated and more agreeable over time, despite the lack of anything approaching real censorship. That's precisely what you want if you care about not harming society at large, especially in the longer run.
    - james-mcelwain 6y ago
      > That's precisely what you want if you care about not harming society at large, especially in the longer run. Please, explain: how do queer ideas harm society, in the longer run?
      - zozbot234 6y ago
        My whole point is that censorship is what harms society, not ideas themselves.
thebean11 6y ago
Regardless of whether they helped public perception, should they have been censored until public opinion caught up?

by knzhou 6y ago

AnthonyMouse 6y ago

https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/07/08/gay-rites-are-civil-rites/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/07/08/gay-rites-are-civil-ri... First you show the world you exist and convince your friends it's worth trying to change things, then you convince the moderates, then you win the fight, then you wait for your bitter enemies to die because they'll never be convinced but at least their kids are open to new ideas. Pissing off your bitter enemies can be hard to avoid and still get the job done.

knzhou 6y ago
But this article is making my exact point. By the time gay marriage was actually gaining acceptance, the largest pride parades had become as tame as 4th of July celebrations, with SF pride marching with the police, the mayor, and Google employees. They're completely different from their predecessors, like the Stonewall riots.
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  Because it's a different stage of the fight. You don't start off having a parade with the mayor in it because the mayor won't give you the time of day until your movement is big enough to be taken seriously, which starts with getting noticed and getting out the base. Being bland and studious doesn't do that. And the parades are still full of weirdos, but they won, so now it's okay.
- zozbot234 6y ago
  The point stands that even these seemingly "queer", radically expressed ideas clearly became a lot tamer, less insolently-stated and more agreeable over time, despite the lack of anything approaching real censorship. That's precisely what you want if you care about not harming society at large, especially in the longer run.
  - james-mcelwain 6y ago
    > That's precisely what you want if you care about not harming society at large, especially in the longer run. Please, explain: how do queer ideas harm society, in the longer run?
    - zozbot234 6y ago
      My whole point is that censorship is what harms society, not ideas themselves.

thebean11 6y ago

Regardless of whether they helped public perception, should they have been censored until public opinion caught up?