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> I’ve already figured out that it’s worthless to even try looking at permanent positions. > > No one wants to hire anyone over 40 as an engineer. Maybe you'r

by dkarl 7y ago

> I’ve already figured out that it’s worthless to even try looking at permanent positions. > > No one wants to hire anyone over 40 as an engineer. Maybe you're shooting too low. People hire a lot of engineers over forty, but mostly into high-level positions where they are expected to mentor junior developers, guide decisions about technology, work closely with people outside of engineering, and otherwise help set standards and direction for the team. It's still technically an individual contributor role, but you're judged by your influence on the performance of everyone around you. The emphasis you place on your individual technical achievements indicates that you aren't aware of that aspect of the role that companies expect someone with your level of experience to fill. On one hand, I think it's unfortunate, because if you want to concentrate on producing excellent individual work, there should be the same place for you at 40 or 50 as there is for somebody doing that at 30. On the other hand, they're demanding more of you because they expect that somebody with your level of experience should be able to deliver it, and they're probably right. You probably are capable of doing that stuff if you are aware of the expectations and aware of your influence on the organization around you. And it can be kind of demoralizing for a team when leadership is required (as it always is) and someone with your chops and experience fails to step up and provide it because they're focused on the amazing quality of their individual work. Again, I think you can probably do everything these higher positions require, but you'll have to rebalance the way you pitch yourself (add some stuff about your ability to mentor, guide technology decisions, etc.) to show that you accept those expectations and will do your best to live up to them.

ChrisMarshallNY 7y ago
You have a good point. I've assumed that it's the opposite. People see that I've been a manager, and don't want me on their team because I'll try to take it over (one of the reasons that I'm leaning towards a consultant role, as that's less of a threat). Well...it will all come out in the wash or the rinse. I'll be giving online courses in Swift and Bluetooth soon. I have to set up the presentations and curricula for them. I've been mentoring and training for decades; almost entirely for the open-source work I've done. I suspect that it may be a direction worth exploring. I have been absolutely stunned at the virulence of the ageism. I guess that it's maybe a by-product of all the polarization that's going on.
- dkarl 7y ago
  > People see that I've been a manager, and don't want me on their team because I'll try to take it over Oh yeah, this has changed 180º in the last ten years. My experience in startups since, say, 2013, is that development teams are expected to be 90% self-managing. Managers spend their time doing recruiting and high-level meetings and spend maybe an hour or two a day trying to stay in touch with what their team is doing. Confusion with the product team? Quality issue with a junior developer? Something gets postponed and you need to decide what to do next? Developers are expected to take care of this stuff amongst themselves. Managers get informed and maybe consulted, and of course have authority to intervene, but the traditional day-to-day responsibilities of management now belong to the senior members of the team. My recent managers have attended planning meetings with devs so they have an idea what their team is doing and are available to answer questions about priorities and help with tough calls, but they're happiest if the team handles everything without them so they can concentrate on big-picture work. For someone like me who entered the industry twenty years ago, it feels like we're doing our manager's job for them, but it's the new normal.

by dkarl 7y ago

ChrisMarshallNY 7y ago

You have a good point. I've assumed that it's the opposite. People see that I've been a manager, and don't want me on their team because I'll try to take it over (one of the reasons that I'm leaning towards a consultant role, as that's less of a threat). Well...it will all come out in the wash or the rinse. I'll be giving online courses in Swift and Bluetooth soon. I have to set up the presentations and curricula for them. I've been mentoring and training for decades; almost entirely for the open-source work I've done. I suspect that it may be a direction worth exploring. I have been absolutely stunned at the virulence of the ageism. I guess that it's maybe a by-product of all the polarization that's going on.

dkarl 7y ago
> People see that I've been a manager, and don't want me on their team because I'll try to take it over Oh yeah, this has changed 180º in the last ten years. My experience in startups since, say, 2013, is that development teams are expected to be 90% self-managing. Managers spend their time doing recruiting and high-level meetings and spend maybe an hour or two a day trying to stay in touch with what their team is doing. Confusion with the product team? Quality issue with a junior developer? Something gets postponed and you need to decide what to do next? Developers are expected to take care of this stuff amongst themselves. Managers get informed and maybe consulted, and of course have authority to intervene, but the traditional day-to-day responsibilities of management now belong to the senior members of the team. My recent managers have attended planning meetings with devs so they have an idea what their team is doing and are available to answer questions about priorities and help with tough calls, but they're happiest if the team handles everything without them so they can concentrate on big-picture work. For someone like me who entered the industry twenty years ago, it feels like we're doing our manager's job for them, but it's the new normal.