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For an industry where talent is supposedly in such high demand, it seems surprisingly hard for newcomers to break in that don't follow the traditional college->

For an industry where talent is supposedly in such high demand, it seems surprisingly hard for newcomers to break in that don't follow the traditional college->internship->junior hire path. I think there are a number of factors that cause this: 1) Even juniors get paid quite a bit compared to many other professions. 2) Software engineers have an uncanny ability to be worse than useless. A bad software engineer means you need several other software engineers to clean up their mistakes. 3) Given the above points, generally speaking, the companies that actually can afford to take a chance on someone without a proven track record are also the ones that don't need to. FAANG companies can attract top talent using their brand and deep pockets. I think 2) is somewhat misguided, though. The ones making terrible, costly decisions probably aren't junior programmers anyway. Jeff Atwood has a really good post that I think is relevant: https://blog.codinghorror.com/nobody-hates-software-more-than-software-developers/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/nobody-hates-software-more-tha... Re: your post in particular: > I can't put the words "software developer" on my resume but I have written a lot of programs for my classes and in hobby projects. This can certainly go on your resume, just don't misrepresent it. A common pattern I've seen is for folks to have a "Projects" section on their resume that mostly takes the place of what they would list as their relevant employment. If people don't look at your github, put your github where they do look.

greenyoda 7y ago
> A bad software engineer means you need several other software engineers to clean up their mistakes. This also sounds like a problem with incompetent management. If an engineer can spend so much time building bad code that it takes multiple engineers to clean it up, it means that there was a long history of ineffective code reviews and inadequate training (e.g., nobody bothered to give the engineer an overview of the architecture of the system they were hired to work on). And if the engineer is truly incompetent, it's also management's failure that the employee wasn't let go before they could create that amount of damage. Not to mention that management's interview process wasn't good enough to detect glaring incompetence. If management takes their jobs seriously, the risks of a bad hiring decision can be minimized to the point where it's not that risky to hire someone without a CS degree or inside connections.
- Hamuko 7y ago
  >And if the engineer is truly incompetent, it's also management's failure that the employee wasn't let go before they could create that amount of damage. In some places it's not that easy to get rid of people. I know there's someone at my current workplace who I secretly wish was let go, but I know that the only realistic option I have is find a new job myself.
- hamandcheese 7y ago
  Yes, in a well run organization it should be difficult for any one person to cause too much damage. Thats one of the benefits of bureaucracy! But at many startups, especially in the early stages, developers have a lot of autonomy (and rightly so). In a small environment like that, you need folks you can trust, and a mis-hire could be devastating.
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non-entity 7y ago
> For an industry where talent is supposedly in such high demand, it seems surprisingly hard for newcomers to break in that don't follow the traditional college->internship->junior hire path. Is that really true though. It seems to be one of the only, if not the only, high pay fields someone who never went to / completed school can enter.
- hamandcheese 7y ago
  I agree that it is easier than most industries, but I still think the degree to which it is easier does not accurately reflect the alleged demand for talent.

greenyoda 7y ago

> A bad software engineer means you need several other software engineers to clean up their mistakes. This also sounds like a problem with incompetent management. If an engineer can spend so much time building bad code that it takes multiple engineers to clean it up, it means that there was a long history of ineffective code reviews and inadequate training (e.g., nobody bothered to give the engineer an overview of the architecture of the system they were hired to work on). And if the engineer is truly incompetent, it's also management's failure that the employee wasn't let go before they could create that amount of damage. Not to mention that management's interview process wasn't good enough to detect glaring incompetence. If management takes their jobs seriously, the risks of a bad hiring decision can be minimized to the point where it's not that risky to hire someone without a CS degree or inside connections.

Hamuko 7y ago
>And if the engineer is truly incompetent, it's also management's failure that the employee wasn't let go before they could create that amount of damage. In some places it's not that easy to get rid of people. I know there's someone at my current workplace who I secretly wish was let go, but I know that the only realistic option I have is find a new job myself.
hamandcheese 7y ago
Yes, in a well run organization it should be difficult for any one person to cause too much damage. Thats one of the benefits of bureaucracy! But at many startups, especially in the early stages, developers have a lot of autonomy (and rightly so). In a small environment like that, you need folks you can trust, and a mis-hire could be devastating.
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non-entity 7y ago

> For an industry where talent is supposedly in such high demand, it seems surprisingly hard for newcomers to break in that don't follow the traditional college->internship->junior hire path. Is that really true though. It seems to be one of the only, if not the only, high pay fields someone who never went to / completed school can enter.

hamandcheese 7y ago
I agree that it is easier than most industries, but I still think the degree to which it is easier does not accurately reflect the alleged demand for talent.