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I thought it was the most secure general purpose operating system because it's so rarely used - especially for use cases like running untrusted code in unprivil

by geofft 7y ago

I thought it was the most secure general purpose operating system because it's so rarely used - especially for use cases like running untrusted code in unprivileged accounts - that it's a low-value target. Sure, OpenBSD doesn't have exploitable security holes when used as e.g. a packet router, but when was the last time Linux did? OpenBSD's website says things like "Only two remote holes in the default install, in a heck of a long time!", but remote holes in the default install is such a small surface on any OS (besides e.g. Windows XP). When was the last time you saw a remote hole in the default install of, say, Ubuntu desktop? macOS? The Amazon Linux AMI? The interesting vulnerabilities are in server software that isn't running by default, local privilege escalation, etc. Also, weren't there like four security bugs in December, at least one of which was remotely exploitable?

monadic2 7y ago
> Sure, OpenBSD doesn't have exploitable security holes when used as e.g. a packet router, but when was the last time Linux did? didn’t linux move a packet routing vm into the kernel in the last ten years? I’d say chances are high there are multiple exploitable holes just based on time and surface area alone.
a1369209993 7y ago
> When was the last time you saw a remote hole in the default install of, say, Ubuntu desktop? Literally right now, with snaps. If you only mean unintentional remote holes, and not deliberate backdoors, then we have very different ideas of what "most secure general purpose operating system" means. Also, BSD doesn't generally actively refuse to fix security holes when thousands of people compain about them.
- geofft 7y ago
  Granting your framing for the sake of argument, then we've got one remote hole in a heck of a long time in Ubuntu desktop, and still nothing in macOS or Amazon Linux. I'm certainly not claiming that any of these OSes is better than OpenBSD. I'm claiming they're all about the same, and the "OpenBSD cares more about security than everyone else" narrative isn't actually based in evidence. OpenBSD has a particular view of security, which they care about very much, and OpenBSD has done some very cool and precedent-setting things - but that particular view is applicable to narrow use cases, and other people quite reasonably care about other parts, while incorporating versions of innovations from OpenBSD too. Also, if I understand your unstated argument correctly, even if we don't admit a difference between unintentional remote holes and "deliberate backdoors," there's still a huge and meaningful difference between remote holes that can be exploited by a tiny number of people and remote holes that can be exploited by anyone.
  - a1369209993 7y ago
    > we've got one remote hole Are you forgetting the time they sent local filesystem searches to some spyware company? And that's just things that were a: deliberate, and b: public enough that I remember them off the top of my head despite not having used Ubuntu in years? (I forget which specific problem made me drop it, or I'd probably have a third example.) OSX is a toxic, vendor-supplied-malware infested cesspit that I've never used and don't pay much attention to, and I've never even heard of Amazon Linux, so I wouldn't expect to have examples for those. > the "OpenBSD cares more about security than everyone else" narrative Actually, my claim was that Ubuntu (and maybe a significant fraction of "everyone else", but that wasn't really my point) is actively opposed to security. > even if we don't admit a difference between unintentional remote holes and "deliberate backdoors," There is a difference; there's a huge difference; deliberate backdoors are much, much worse. This kind of shit is something I would expect of Microsoft (Windows) or Google (Chrome).
    - geofft 7y ago
      > Are you forgetting the time they sent local filesystem searches to some spyware company? That was not a remote hole. > OSX is a toxic, vendor-supplied-malware infested cesspit that I've never used Sure, but is any of the vendor-supplied malware in that cesspit a remote hole? I'm happy to have broad, open-ended arguments about who sucks more in new and innovative ways, but let's finish the argument we're already having first. Is OpenBSD meaningfully more secure than other operating systems on the axis they are choosing to advertise, namely "remote holes in the default install," than other OSes? In particular, whatever you believe about deliberate backdoors, toxic cesspits, being actively opposed to security, etc., none of that is something the choice of programming language is in any way relevant to. If Theo's argument were "We don't need Rust because we are the only operating system that isn't actively opposed to security, so everyone else has lost the game already," we'd be having a very different conversation. But it's not and we aren't.

by geofft 7y ago

monadic2 7y ago

> Sure, OpenBSD doesn't have exploitable security holes when used as e.g. a packet router, but when was the last time Linux did? didn’t linux move a packet routing vm into the kernel in the last ten years? I’d say chances are high there are multiple exploitable holes just based on time and surface area alone.

a1369209993 7y ago

> When was the last time you saw a remote hole in the default install of, say, Ubuntu desktop? Literally right now, with snaps. If you only mean unintentional remote holes, and not deliberate backdoors, then we have very different ideas of what "most secure general purpose operating system" means. Also, BSD doesn't generally actively refuse to fix security holes when thousands of people compain about them.

geofft 7y ago
Granting your framing for the sake of argument, then we've got one remote hole in a heck of a long time in Ubuntu desktop, and still nothing in macOS or Amazon Linux. I'm certainly not claiming that any of these OSes is better than OpenBSD. I'm claiming they're all about the same, and the "OpenBSD cares more about security than everyone else" narrative isn't actually based in evidence. OpenBSD has a particular view of security, which they care about very much, and OpenBSD has done some very cool and precedent-setting things - but that particular view is applicable to narrow use cases, and other people quite reasonably care about other parts, while incorporating versions of innovations from OpenBSD too. Also, if I understand your unstated argument correctly, even if we don't admit a difference between unintentional remote holes and "deliberate backdoors," there's still a huge and meaningful difference between remote holes that can be exploited by a tiny number of people and remote holes that can be exploited by anyone.
- a1369209993 7y ago
  > we've got one remote hole Are you forgetting the time they sent local filesystem searches to some spyware company? And that's just things that were a: deliberate, and b: public enough that I remember them off the top of my head despite not having used Ubuntu in years? (I forget which specific problem made me drop it, or I'd probably have a third example.) OSX is a toxic, vendor-supplied-malware infested cesspit that I've never used and don't pay much attention to, and I've never even heard of Amazon Linux, so I wouldn't expect to have examples for those. > the "OpenBSD cares more about security than everyone else" narrative Actually, my claim was that Ubuntu (and maybe a significant fraction of "everyone else", but that wasn't really my point) is actively opposed to security. > even if we don't admit a difference between unintentional remote holes and "deliberate backdoors," There is a difference; there's a huge difference; deliberate backdoors are much, much worse. This kind of shit is something I would expect of Microsoft (Windows) or Google (Chrome).
  - geofft 7y ago
    > Are you forgetting the time they sent local filesystem searches to some spyware company? That was not a remote hole. > OSX is a toxic, vendor-supplied-malware infested cesspit that I've never used Sure, but is any of the vendor-supplied malware in that cesspit a remote hole? I'm happy to have broad, open-ended arguments about who sucks more in new and innovative ways, but let's finish the argument we're already having first. Is OpenBSD meaningfully more secure than other operating systems on the axis they are choosing to advertise, namely "remote holes in the default install," than other OSes? In particular, whatever you believe about deliberate backdoors, toxic cesspits, being actively opposed to security, etc., none of that is something the choice of programming language is in any way relevant to. If Theo's argument were "We don't need Rust because we are the only operating system that isn't actively opposed to security, so everyone else has lost the game already," we'd be having a very different conversation. But it's not and we aren't.