5 ms·

Are linux users regular users?

by searchableguy 7y ago

apexalpha 7y ago
What if your goal is to bring Linux to the masses?
- searchableguy 7y ago
  That boat sailed long ago. Windows has a pretty decent linux subsystem now. Even devs that were hardcore linux enthusiasts moved to windows. The benefit of linux is that it doesn't force stuff on you that you can't disable compared to windows. If you take that away, there are very little reasons for any normal user to move.
  - alrs 7y ago
    ehhhh, I've never seen a hardcore Linux developer move to Windows. WSL exists to sunset Windows-based development, not the other way around. Windows Server gets to exist so long as it acts as a funnel into Azure. Someday it will be sold off to Wipro, a la VMS or OS/2.
    - indigodaddy 7y ago
      Windows Server won’t be getting “sold off.” I’m not sure you understand just how entrenched Windows Server is in the Enterprise and just about every Fortune 500 company out there, including huge telecoms and ISPs. MS still makes a ton of money off Server, and most of the companies/Enterprise using Server aren’t even thinking about Azure.
      - alrs 7y ago
        This is exactly the argument that was being made about Netware in 1994, or OS/2 in 1996, or Solaris in 2005. I'm well aware of how important Windows Server was in the enterprise, and I'm aware of how far it has fallen.
  - screamingninja 7y ago
    > Even devs that were hardcore linux enthusiasts moved to windows. Is this a personal opinion or pure speculation?
    - searchableguy 7y ago
      Just saw it within my circle.
  - stOneskull 7y ago
    I think dual booting is still the way. Gets the best out of linux and eliminates headaches. Boot up times are so fast these days, in and out of the OSs almost as fast as logging in and out.
- SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
  Well then there is a lot of work to do besides snapping and updates. For a normal user, the INSTANT something goes wrong in Linux, you step from “something kinda like Windows” to “100% Voodoo you are expected to know”
  - BenjiWiebe 7y ago
    In my experience the average Windows only user is just as clueless when Windows breaks. Which it does, plenty of times.
    - SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
      That’s not untrue at all. It’s just that when I have used that needs to reset his WiFi adapter, there are nice picture tutorials for Windows, and on Linux you better have some idea what a /dev/ is. Think about explaining to grandma over the phone. It’s just a non-starter for Linux. Which is fine, it’s what it is for a reason. But it’ll never have mass appeal because of it.
      - searchableguy 7y ago
        For comparison - https://net2.com/how-to-fix-wifi-not-working-on-ubuntu/ https://net2.com/how-to-fix-wifi-not-working-on-ubuntu/ https://support.microsoft.com/en-in/help/10741/windows-fix-network-connection-issues https://support.microsoft.com/en-in/help/10741/windows-fix-n...
        SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
        Yea, “ First determine the name of your WiFi interface by issuing the command : nmcli d “ I knew that, but only in the back of my head. If the internet wasn’t working, you know, a WiFi problem, I would have a very tough time remembering that. Which is the point, trying to remember the voodoo. And if I had to ask grandma to type in nmcli d then read me what she sees? Well, if anyone wants to prove me wrong, I’ll set my grandma up on Linux and give her your cell number. I get that there are a lot of Linux fans here, but be realistic, it’s not for most people and never will be. You need autism or have never worked outside of tech lack the empathy of how mass computer users interact with their machines.
stinos 7y ago
Some of them, very much. Go have a look in academia where there are hordes of tech-illiterates working on linux just because of reasons like some obscure piece of software working only properly on linux, because the postdoc did it that way, because it's cheaper, because they think it has to be done like that, ... Last lab I was in it was just painful to see how much time was completely lost on trying to get things working by people not understanding computers or OS. So if auto-update can alleviate some of those problems, why not. If it breaks things, well that's something else :)
- searchableguy 7y ago
  Linux subsystem is there on windows. You don't have to use linux for majority of cases. Conda is pretty decent. But I want to know what specific things they use that can't work on linux subsystem? Maybe there are some and I don't know about them.
  - chrisandchris 7y ago
    There‘s a simple reason: speed. Have you ever tried to use WSL 1 with npm? I doubt do, because it just takes 10 times more time than on „real“ linux. Also, it‘s way easier to work with multiple desktops and windows position better than on Windows where it seems that they are opening always there where you don‘t look. There are also quite a lot of others, IMHO.
    - searchableguy 7y ago
      I have. It wasn't called wsl but bash on windows back then. You had to disable bunch of services related to scanning files (windows defender?) to make it barely usable but since v2, they are using a lightweight vm so the speeds are significantly better compared to what you got on bash on windows or wsl 1. I don't have anything to say about your other nitpick. A good reason to use windows is games, Adobe and office. Games using anti-cheat will not be available on linux and if you can get them to work, good luck not getting banned.
      - 7y ago
banger180 7y ago
There are many kinds of linux users, just like there are many kinds of windows users.

Are linux users regular users?

apexalpha 7y ago

What if your goal is to bring Linux to the masses?

searchableguy 7y ago
That boat sailed long ago. Windows has a pretty decent linux subsystem now. Even devs that were hardcore linux enthusiasts moved to windows. The benefit of linux is that it doesn't force stuff on you that you can't disable compared to windows. If you take that away, there are very little reasons for any normal user to move.
- alrs 7y ago
  ehhhh, I've never seen a hardcore Linux developer move to Windows. WSL exists to sunset Windows-based development, not the other way around. Windows Server gets to exist so long as it acts as a funnel into Azure. Someday it will be sold off to Wipro, a la VMS or OS/2.
  - indigodaddy 7y ago
    Windows Server won’t be getting “sold off.” I’m not sure you understand just how entrenched Windows Server is in the Enterprise and just about every Fortune 500 company out there, including huge telecoms and ISPs. MS still makes a ton of money off Server, and most of the companies/Enterprise using Server aren’t even thinking about Azure.
    - alrs 7y ago
      This is exactly the argument that was being made about Netware in 1994, or OS/2 in 1996, or Solaris in 2005. I'm well aware of how important Windows Server was in the enterprise, and I'm aware of how far it has fallen.
- screamingninja 7y ago
  > Even devs that were hardcore linux enthusiasts moved to windows. Is this a personal opinion or pure speculation?
  - searchableguy 7y ago
    Just saw it within my circle.
- stOneskull 7y ago
  I think dual booting is still the way. Gets the best out of linux and eliminates headaches. Boot up times are so fast these days, in and out of the OSs almost as fast as logging in and out.
SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
Well then there is a lot of work to do besides snapping and updates. For a normal user, the INSTANT something goes wrong in Linux, you step from “something kinda like Windows” to “100% Voodoo you are expected to know”
- BenjiWiebe 7y ago
  In my experience the average Windows only user is just as clueless when Windows breaks. Which it does, plenty of times.
  - SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
    That’s not untrue at all. It’s just that when I have used that needs to reset his WiFi adapter, there are nice picture tutorials for Windows, and on Linux you better have some idea what a /dev/ is. Think about explaining to grandma over the phone. It’s just a non-starter for Linux. Which is fine, it’s what it is for a reason. But it’ll never have mass appeal because of it.
    - searchableguy 7y ago
      For comparison - https://net2.com/how-to-fix-wifi-not-working-on-ubuntu/ https://net2.com/how-to-fix-wifi-not-working-on-ubuntu/ https://support.microsoft.com/en-in/help/10741/windows-fix-network-connection-issues https://support.microsoft.com/en-in/help/10741/windows-fix-n...
      - SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
        Yea, “ First determine the name of your WiFi interface by issuing the command : nmcli d “ I knew that, but only in the back of my head. If the internet wasn’t working, you know, a WiFi problem, I would have a very tough time remembering that. Which is the point, trying to remember the voodoo. And if I had to ask grandma to type in nmcli d then read me what she sees? Well, if anyone wants to prove me wrong, I’ll set my grandma up on Linux and give her your cell number. I get that there are a lot of Linux fans here, but be realistic, it’s not for most people and never will be. You need autism or have never worked outside of tech lack the empathy of how mass computer users interact with their machines.

stinos 7y ago

Some of them, very much. Go have a look in academia where there are hordes of tech-illiterates working on linux just because of reasons like some obscure piece of software working only properly on linux, because the postdoc did it that way, because it's cheaper, because they think it has to be done like that, ... Last lab I was in it was just painful to see how much time was completely lost on trying to get things working by people not understanding computers or OS. So if auto-update can alleviate some of those problems, why not. If it breaks things, well that's something else :)

searchableguy 7y ago
Linux subsystem is there on windows. You don't have to use linux for majority of cases. Conda is pretty decent. But I want to know what specific things they use that can't work on linux subsystem? Maybe there are some and I don't know about them.
- chrisandchris 7y ago
  There‘s a simple reason: speed. Have you ever tried to use WSL 1 with npm? I doubt do, because it just takes 10 times more time than on „real“ linux. Also, it‘s way easier to work with multiple desktops and windows position better than on Windows where it seems that they are opening always there where you don‘t look. There are also quite a lot of others, IMHO.
  - searchableguy 7y ago
    I have. It wasn't called wsl but bash on windows back then. You had to disable bunch of services related to scanning files (windows defender?) to make it barely usable but since v2, they are using a lightweight vm so the speeds are significantly better compared to what you got on bash on windows or wsl 1. I don't have anything to say about your other nitpick. A good reason to use windows is games, Adobe and office. Games using anti-cheat will not be available on linux and if you can get them to work, good luck not getting banned.
    - 7y ago

banger180 7y ago

There are many kinds of linux users, just like there are many kinds of windows users.