6 ms·

Yes, it’s become obvious that this whole situation is not so much a threat to white-collar work, but to the necessity of the hierarchy and authoritarian control

Yes, it’s become obvious that this whole situation is not so much a threat to white-collar work, but to the necessity of the hierarchy and authoritarian control structures that define American workplaces.

Roritharr 6y ago
I sadly have to agree. A good entrepreneur friend of mine asked me what he can do to better monitor his employees working from home. His questions got creepy quickly until I had to tell him to ask someone else because I felt uncomfortable, but let's just say Office 365 can quickly turn into a mighty tool for the ill intentioned.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- h_cube 6y ago
  Sigh. I've had to deal with this as well now that our engineering org is full remote. What it comes down to is that our leadership doesn't trust us, even though we consistently and repeatedly deliver releases on time and on budget. If our engineering leadership was comfortable with compensating us for the desired outcomes they want to generate value for the company, this wouldn't be an issue. Somehow I'm guessing they feel uncomfortable that we could all be getting our work done in 4 hours every day and then going outside to play.
  - jacquesm 6y ago
    They're not uncomfortable about it, they see that as breach of contract and would like you to either take a pay cut or work the full 8. We get paid 'by the hour' and not by a contracted amount of work no matter how much time is spent. Our whole regular workforce is structured around hourly wages, full time and/or part time employment in something described as a 'job'. If you start upending that it is important to realize that employers have a dominant position right now and that upsetting that position may not end well for those that really only do four hours of actual work during an 8 hour day.
    - mercer 6y ago
      > ...upsetting that position may not end well for those that really only do four hours of actual work during an 8 hour day. One of the great shocks in my life was finding out the sheer number of employees to which this applies. The most obvious places were the various BigCo's I worked at, but it applied almost anywhere. Now just the drudgery and pointlessness of much of their work made me sympathetic to their slacking-off, but it was the constant anxiety of appearing busy that made it seem truly miserable. At some point in my early twenties I'd had both the high-pressure, still-smelling-of-fries-after-a-shower type of experience of working at McDonald's or various restaurants, as well as the experience of sitting in the office with various just-below-board-member managers of one of the major insurance companies here. Aside from the possible issues resulting from the physical strain, and having to live more frugally, McDonald's struck me as preferable to the latter (but neither seemed like any kind of world I want to live in or actively maintain, if possible). I don't know if this is a personal thing, but I would go for a job where I need to focus and work over a job where I need to pretend to focus and work anytime. And most office jobs seem to have more of the latter than I can imagine anyone tolerating.
      - slfnflctd 6y ago
        100% this. I had a government job, could have worked my way to a nice pension and everything... but I realized a few years in that my mental health probably would not survive the slog. Half the average day (easily) was totally eaten up by small talk, surfing the web and/or making personal journal entries. Another quarter of the day was meetings, often with snacks. I took long lunches. There were days when I did probably less than hour of actual work. And all the while I kept thinking, "why was I happier when I had my nose to the grind in the private sector?" Most people need to feel useful on some level or they lose motivation and their brains go sour. There are exceptions to this rule, and those people should definitely dedicate their lives to finding a cushy office job. I would literally rather drive rideshare, and I have. [Not since March 12th, though-- fortunately my S.O. is able to cover bills until I can go back to driving and/or try to find a software job worth showing up for again.]
        6y ago
  - faitswulff 6y ago
    > What it comes down to is that our leadership doesn't trust us... This seems to be the argument against UBI, as well.
ChuckNorris89 6y ago
>authoritarian control structures that define modern American workplaces. You can replace American with German/Indian/Korean/$COUNTRY. Lots of managers are just doing BS jobs and are totally useless and the only way they can justify their necessity to those above them is to put on a show and have a tight grip on those beneath them. Once CV19 blows over, it'll be back to clogging up the streets and offices for most of us.
folkhack 6y ago
> but to the necessity of the hierarchy and authoritarian control structures that define American workplaces Yep - this whole thing is upsetting middle-management. When they're not able to do the whole "manage culture"/butts-in-chairs thing their worth goes to near-zero outside of harassing workers and slinging office documents around. Regardless of if it's workers/managers, work remote does one thing: it cuts the performers from non-performers because the best metric to measure success is output. THIS is why people are freaking out - if they can't APPEAR to be working it'll become very apparent that they're a net-negative to the company they're a parasite of.
- __s 6y ago
  Some people might appear less productive because they're dealing with child care etc. I've been able to keep up my output, but I'm a bachelor whose life hasn't changed much in the last couple months But good point. Just we shouldn't be applying aggregate performance reviews based on this episode which don't account for the varying burdens being experienced
  - folkhack 6y ago
    > Just we shouldn't be applying aggregate performance reviews based on this episode which don't account for the varying burdens being experienced Empathetically I agree, but as a realist you can't expect that burden to be shouldered by American businesses who are already hurting. If I kept employing someone that was a net-negative I'd be penalizing those who are keeping their stuff together by keeping them on the payroll during a market downturn... pandemic or not. You don't stay in business by accepting extraneous risk over people's personal problems. This is why I'm supportive of a livable UBI - most of the American corporate environment is make-work and it shouldn't be looked down on for non-market-performers to exit the workforce and exist doing whatever. Leave the work to people who want to work... simple as that.
  - Torwald 6y ago
    There's a difference between working from home and working in your home office.
Noos 6y ago
Those are necessary. Engineer: "Can't you see we are all very smart and working harmoniously to your goal? Just leave us alone already!" Manager: "Well Fred is bullying Steve about this aspect of the product, because he doesn't like his way of doing it and thinks he can do it better. This puts way too much pressure on Fred who will crack trying to do two jobs, and resentment from Steve, who is actually doing a fine job. I need to talk to Fred about this." "Also Mike is slacking, working on his side hustle while only contributing the bare minimum to the project. People are noticing and are getting mad at him, cutting him out of the loop more and more." I don't think management as a role is appreciated much, but it can be vital. It can also be very bad, but the abuse doesn't abolish the use.
- 8ytecoder 6y ago
  Management != monitoring presence of butt in the seat. You bring up very good points and that’s exactly what management is supposed to be about. Enable everyone to perform at their best as best as possible. It’s just that it’s hard and people resort to indirect markers. “Does she come to office on time?” “Does she spend enough time at work?“ Not many managers try to find out - “is she doing the best she can?” “What’s preventing her from that?” “How can I help her?” How many managers have a real good relationship with their team that the team shares their real issues preventing them? How many team members feel judged or not heard? All these have nothing to do with working from home or remote btw.
  - grogenaut 6y ago
    I do think plenty of managers who have to manage out someone like the guy who will not stop doing the side hustle get a ton of shit on forums like these. Hell as a pair I had to send a coworker home because he was so embroiled in day trading. At one point I closed his laptop and said "your either here to work or you can go home and panic about the markets". He got real huffy and then went home. He apologized a week later (he was relatively introspective it just took him a day or so)
octygen 6y ago
Eagerness for normality (e.g., "Back to the office we need to go and ASAP!") seems inversely related to the capacity for change managers have. It shows how much control those managers truly require over each member of their team. Consequently, it shows how weak managers are. In a similar vein, over-reliance on analytics of past data to make future decisions seems inversely related to the ability of a leader to lead. It shows how lazy their thinking is. Consequently, it shows how weak leaders are.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

Roritharr 6y ago

I sadly have to agree. A good entrepreneur friend of mine asked me what he can do to better monitor his employees working from home. His questions got creepy quickly until I had to tell him to ask someone else because I felt uncomfortable, but let's just say Office 365 can quickly turn into a mighty tool for the ill intentioned.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
h_cube 6y ago
Sigh. I've had to deal with this as well now that our engineering org is full remote. What it comes down to is that our leadership doesn't trust us, even though we consistently and repeatedly deliver releases on time and on budget. If our engineering leadership was comfortable with compensating us for the desired outcomes they want to generate value for the company, this wouldn't be an issue. Somehow I'm guessing they feel uncomfortable that we could all be getting our work done in 4 hours every day and then going outside to play.
- jacquesm 6y ago
  They're not uncomfortable about it, they see that as breach of contract and would like you to either take a pay cut or work the full 8. We get paid 'by the hour' and not by a contracted amount of work no matter how much time is spent. Our whole regular workforce is structured around hourly wages, full time and/or part time employment in something described as a 'job'. If you start upending that it is important to realize that employers have a dominant position right now and that upsetting that position may not end well for those that really only do four hours of actual work during an 8 hour day.
  - mercer 6y ago
    > ...upsetting that position may not end well for those that really only do four hours of actual work during an 8 hour day. One of the great shocks in my life was finding out the sheer number of employees to which this applies. The most obvious places were the various BigCo's I worked at, but it applied almost anywhere. Now just the drudgery and pointlessness of much of their work made me sympathetic to their slacking-off, but it was the constant anxiety of appearing busy that made it seem truly miserable. At some point in my early twenties I'd had both the high-pressure, still-smelling-of-fries-after-a-shower type of experience of working at McDonald's or various restaurants, as well as the experience of sitting in the office with various just-below-board-member managers of one of the major insurance companies here. Aside from the possible issues resulting from the physical strain, and having to live more frugally, McDonald's struck me as preferable to the latter (but neither seemed like any kind of world I want to live in or actively maintain, if possible). I don't know if this is a personal thing, but I would go for a job where I need to focus and work over a job where I need to pretend to focus and work anytime. And most office jobs seem to have more of the latter than I can imagine anyone tolerating.
    - slfnflctd 6y ago
      100% this. I had a government job, could have worked my way to a nice pension and everything... but I realized a few years in that my mental health probably would not survive the slog. Half the average day (easily) was totally eaten up by small talk, surfing the web and/or making personal journal entries. Another quarter of the day was meetings, often with snacks. I took long lunches. There were days when I did probably less than hour of actual work. And all the while I kept thinking, "why was I happier when I had my nose to the grind in the private sector?" Most people need to feel useful on some level or they lose motivation and their brains go sour. There are exceptions to this rule, and those people should definitely dedicate their lives to finding a cushy office job. I would literally rather drive rideshare, and I have. [Not since March 12th, though-- fortunately my S.O. is able to cover bills until I can go back to driving and/or try to find a software job worth showing up for again.]
      - 6y ago
- faitswulff 6y ago
  > What it comes down to is that our leadership doesn't trust us... This seems to be the argument against UBI, as well.

ChuckNorris89 6y ago

>authoritarian control structures that define modern American workplaces. You can replace American with German/Indian/Korean/$COUNTRY. Lots of managers are just doing BS jobs and are totally useless and the only way they can justify their necessity to those above them is to put on a show and have a tight grip on those beneath them. Once CV19 blows over, it'll be back to clogging up the streets and offices for most of us.

folkhack 6y ago

> but to the necessity of the hierarchy and authoritarian control structures that define American workplaces Yep - this whole thing is upsetting middle-management. When they're not able to do the whole "manage culture"/butts-in-chairs thing their worth goes to near-zero outside of harassing workers and slinging office documents around. Regardless of if it's workers/managers, work remote does one thing: it cuts the performers from non-performers because the best metric to measure success is output. THIS is why people are freaking out - if they can't APPEAR to be working it'll become very apparent that they're a net-negative to the company they're a parasite of.

__s 6y ago
Some people might appear less productive because they're dealing with child care etc. I've been able to keep up my output, but I'm a bachelor whose life hasn't changed much in the last couple months But good point. Just we shouldn't be applying aggregate performance reviews based on this episode which don't account for the varying burdens being experienced
- folkhack 6y ago
  > Just we shouldn't be applying aggregate performance reviews based on this episode which don't account for the varying burdens being experienced Empathetically I agree, but as a realist you can't expect that burden to be shouldered by American businesses who are already hurting. If I kept employing someone that was a net-negative I'd be penalizing those who are keeping their stuff together by keeping them on the payroll during a market downturn... pandemic or not. You don't stay in business by accepting extraneous risk over people's personal problems. This is why I'm supportive of a livable UBI - most of the American corporate environment is make-work and it shouldn't be looked down on for non-market-performers to exit the workforce and exist doing whatever. Leave the work to people who want to work... simple as that.
- Torwald 6y ago
  There's a difference between working from home and working in your home office.

Noos 6y ago

Those are necessary. Engineer: "Can't you see we are all very smart and working harmoniously to your goal? Just leave us alone already!" Manager: "Well Fred is bullying Steve about this aspect of the product, because he doesn't like his way of doing it and thinks he can do it better. This puts way too much pressure on Fred who will crack trying to do two jobs, and resentment from Steve, who is actually doing a fine job. I need to talk to Fred about this." "Also Mike is slacking, working on his side hustle while only contributing the bare minimum to the project. People are noticing and are getting mad at him, cutting him out of the loop more and more." I don't think management as a role is appreciated much, but it can be vital. It can also be very bad, but the abuse doesn't abolish the use.

8ytecoder 6y ago
Management != monitoring presence of butt in the seat. You bring up very good points and that’s exactly what management is supposed to be about. Enable everyone to perform at their best as best as possible. It’s just that it’s hard and people resort to indirect markers. “Does she come to office on time?” “Does she spend enough time at work?“ Not many managers try to find out - “is she doing the best she can?” “What’s preventing her from that?” “How can I help her?” How many managers have a real good relationship with their team that the team shares their real issues preventing them? How many team members feel judged or not heard? All these have nothing to do with working from home or remote btw.
- grogenaut 6y ago
  I do think plenty of managers who have to manage out someone like the guy who will not stop doing the side hustle get a ton of shit on forums like these. Hell as a pair I had to send a coworker home because he was so embroiled in day trading. At one point I closed his laptop and said "your either here to work or you can go home and panic about the markets". He got real huffy and then went home. He apologized a week later (he was relatively introspective it just took him a day or so)

octygen 6y ago

Eagerness for normality (e.g., "Back to the office we need to go and ASAP!") seems inversely related to the capacity for change managers have. It shows how much control those managers truly require over each member of their team. Consequently, it shows how weak managers are. In a similar vein, over-reliance on analytics of past data to make future decisions seems inversely related to the ability of a leader to lead. It shows how lazy their thinking is. Consequently, it shows how weak leaders are.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]