5 ms·

This is just “security theater”, to put it in blunt terms. The number of smartphone users in India is around 500 million out of a nearly 1.4 billion population.

by wtmt 6y ago

This is just “security theater”, to put it in blunt terms. The number of smartphone users in India is around 500 million out of a nearly 1.4 billion population. Most of the smartphones are also cheap low end models that likely won’t support this app (and without a lot of battery drain and other issues). The app is also very intrusive in the amount of information it collects. It requires continuous GPS access. It uploads data to a server. There is no data protection or privacy law in India, even after privacy was declared as a fundamental right a few years ago. I read in a research pointed out in an Ars Technica article that contact tracing using technology starts providing more utility when 60% of the population uses it. That’s simply not possible in India. Interestingly, the information technology minister announced that there would soon be a solution for feature phones as well. For the requirement on phone manufacturers to pre-install this app on new phones, I hope at least Apple fights it out. We’ll soon know how strong Apple is on rights in certain countries.

stefan_ 6y ago
Schneier said it best: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2020/05/me_on_covad-19_.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2020/05/me_on_covad-1... "This is just something governments want to do for the hell of it. To me, it's just techies doing techie things because they don't know what else to do."
- WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
  I mean, he's not wrong. The world is scary as shit and after making lots of money building technology and being sold on 'making the world a better place' and it turning into making more money for someone else technologists have to feel that they should do something to help out. I've even fallen for that trap, writing a little Android app that can help businesses put up signs about COVID-19 after the 'grand reopening of the US' without realizing that most of those people will go bankrupt and have their live savings and have their future crushed by something we might not be able to stop without burying millions of Americans.
- bronzeage 6y ago
  Well he's definitely mistaken: for example, in Israel, technological contact tracing (not an app tho) by the Shabak led to more than 500 confirmed cases which might not have been detected otherwise: https://news.walla.co.il/item/3348992 https://news.walla.co.il/item/3348992 And this was as early as 26 of march, so I bet it continued being significant.
  - tinus_hn 6y ago
    No one’s going to deny these apps will find some cases. But to be effective they need to find a majority of all cases.
    - vinay427 6y ago
      Sure, but doing something "for the hell of it" implies it has virtually no practical value, at least to my ears. It's rather unproductive for someone (not you, in this case) to use a sweeping inflammatory statement when they later fall back to what they actually meant: a more reasonable and much weaker statement.
- pengaru 6y ago
  It also seems likely to serve as clicking another step down the slippery /Big Brother surveillance now using your own property to surveil you/ slope. Establishing this precedent, helping condition people to cooperate with such unnecessary invasions, under the guise of a big doomy crisis, seems like it could serve a variety of erosive purposes.
netsharc 6y ago
> a solution for feature phones as well. Cell tower triangulation?
- mcny 6y ago
  > Using cell towers to detect location is not as accurate as GPS. ... By using cell tower triangulation (3 towers), it is possible to determine a phone location to within an area of about ¾ square mile. https://transition.fcc.gov/pshs/911/Apps%20Wrkshp%202015/911_Help_SMS_WhitePaper0515.pdf https://transition.fcc.gov/pshs/911/Apps%20Wrkshp%202015/911... Practically useless unless you are willing impose a strict curfew within a one mile radius
- sifar 6y ago
  Some form of IVRS. You'll need to call in a number.
mkolodny 6y ago
> I read in a research pointed out in an Ars Technica article that contact tracing using technology starts providing more utility when 60% of the population uses it. According to the research Ars Technica referenced, digital contact tracing doesn't start becoming effective at 60% - at 60% usage, digital contact tracing can stop the pandemic [0]. If even just two people use digital contact tracing, then it can be effective: Say one of the two people with the contact tracing app test positive for COVID-19. If the app knows that the person who tested positive came into contact with the other person who has the app, then we'd know that we should test the other person, too. If the contact also tests positive, we can isolate them to prevent further spread. [0] https://www.research.ox.ac.uk/Article/2020-04-16-digital-contact-tracing-can-slow-or-even-stop-coronavirus-transmission-and-ease-us-out-of-lockdown https://www.research.ox.ac.uk/Article/2020-04-16-digital-con...
- nosuchthing 6y ago
  According to the research Ars Technica referenced, digital contact tracing doesn't start becoming effective at 60% - at 60% usage, digital contact tracing can stop the pandemic There's no silver bullet with this virus. Contact tracing has proven ineffective in Singapore [1], even with additional layers of surveillance and thousands of dedicated staff reviewing CCTV footage, cell tower location data, and calling those suspected exposed to confirmed cases. https://www.economist.com/asia/2020/04/11/not-even-singapore-has-been-able-to-avoid-a-lockdown https://www.economist.com/asia/2020/04/11/not-even-singapore... All the while efficient contact-tracing teams—including members of the police and the army—identified and isolated thousands of people possibly infected with the virus. Members of the armed forces have been making up to 2,000 calls a day to hunt for potential carriers. Those told to stay at home for 14 days have been monitored assiduously to ensure compliance. (Unco-operative types face prosecution or the loss of their residency rights, if they are not citizens.) Yet in spite of everything, the virus continues to spread. Singapore’s approach continues to evolve. Take face masks. Initially Singaporeans were advised that they did not need to wear them unless unwell. Then on April 3rd, in his third televised address on covid-19, Lee Hsien Loong, the prime minister, said that the government would no longer discourage their use and would, in fact, distribute reusable ones to every household. Singapore’s testing regime may alter too. Currently people’s travel history and symptoms are among the factors considered before they are tested for the coronavirus. But health officials say the approach is reviewed regularly and that wider testing might be adopted in future. The difficulty with SARS-CoV-2 is once exposed, there's a window of several days of asymptomatic contagious transmissions. This is a biological health problem, and an app won't stop the spread. Viral fomites are like dust particles, airborne and remaining infectious on surfaces for upwards of 1-9 days depending on environmental factors [2]. Epidemiologists have predicted a global pandemic would happen sooner or later [3], and without a safe treatment the most effective action is to use Non-Pharmaceutical Interventions in any region where the virus might spread. Obviously due to modern air travel, it's now nearly everywhere. [1] https://www.economist.com/asia/2020/04/11/not-even-singapore-has-been-able-to-avoid-a-lockdown https://www.economist.com/asia/2020/04/11/not-even-singapore... [2] https://news.llu.edu/health-wellness/covid-19-virus-remains-active-some-surfaces-longer-than-previously-thought https://news.llu.edu/health-wellness/covid-19-virus-remains-... [3] https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0995_article https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0995_article https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/11425 https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/11425 https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/45220 https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/45220 https://cme-mec.ca/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/CME_Pandemic_Guide_Eng_2009Final.pdf https://cme-mec.ca/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/CME_Pandemic_G... https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/sites/portal/files/documents/Guide-to-pandemic-preparedness-revised.pdf https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/sites/portal/files/documents/Guid...
forgot_user1234 6y ago
a few things - Indians usually live in large families. - i think, you are not accounting for children and old people. who live with there families. - I live in india and i can't give a flying brick about privacy. -if i were to trade my privacy for 2 weeks of suffering. I WOULD. - You need to be alive to have privacy.
newacct583 6y ago
> The number of smartphone users in India is around 500 million out of a nearly 1.4 billion population. Most of the smartphones are also cheap low end models that likely won’t support this app You don't need 100% of anything to control an outbreak. If the app allows you to catch transmission events from the 22.3% or whatever of smartphone users who have compatible devices, and that pushes R0 down below 1.0, then you win. Every little bit helps. Nothing in isolation is going to do it. I'd be curious about that Ars article you mention. I can't believe it would make the statement in that way, because that's not really a correct understanding of the problem.
wobbly_bush 6y ago
> This is just “security theater”, to put it in blunt terms The security theater argument would make sense if there is an audience for the theater - but that is not the case. For example, there are no criticism of the government that it is not doing enough that the government needs to resort to a theater. > The number of smartphone users in India is around 500 million out of a nearly 1.4 billion population It's about concentration of the phones that matter. If the biggest risk of infection is in the cities, and if the concentration of phones in cities is high enough, then it is effective. Looking at the whole country as a single aggregate number doesn't make sense. Your points about privacy I agree with.
tinus_hn 6y ago
How is this implemented on iOS where the operating system doesn’t allow apps to do this?

by wtmt 6y ago

stefan_ 6y ago

Schneier said it best: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2020/05/me_on_covad-19_.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2020/05/me_on_covad-1... "This is just something governments want to do for the hell of it. To me, it's just techies doing techie things because they don't know what else to do."

WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
I mean, he's not wrong. The world is scary as shit and after making lots of money building technology and being sold on 'making the world a better place' and it turning into making more money for someone else technologists have to feel that they should do something to help out. I've even fallen for that trap, writing a little Android app that can help businesses put up signs about COVID-19 after the 'grand reopening of the US' without realizing that most of those people will go bankrupt and have their live savings and have their future crushed by something we might not be able to stop without burying millions of Americans.
bronzeage 6y ago
Well he's definitely mistaken: for example, in Israel, technological contact tracing (not an app tho) by the Shabak led to more than 500 confirmed cases which might not have been detected otherwise: https://news.walla.co.il/item/3348992 https://news.walla.co.il/item/3348992 And this was as early as 26 of march, so I bet it continued being significant.
- tinus_hn 6y ago
  No one’s going to deny these apps will find some cases. But to be effective they need to find a majority of all cases.
  - vinay427 6y ago
    Sure, but doing something "for the hell of it" implies it has virtually no practical value, at least to my ears. It's rather unproductive for someone (not you, in this case) to use a sweeping inflammatory statement when they later fall back to what they actually meant: a more reasonable and much weaker statement.
pengaru 6y ago
It also seems likely to serve as clicking another step down the slippery /Big Brother surveillance now using your own property to surveil you/ slope. Establishing this precedent, helping condition people to cooperate with such unnecessary invasions, under the guise of a big doomy crisis, seems like it could serve a variety of erosive purposes.

netsharc 6y ago

> a solution for feature phones as well. Cell tower triangulation?

mcny 6y ago
> Using cell towers to detect location is not as accurate as GPS. ... By using cell tower triangulation (3 towers), it is possible to determine a phone location to within an area of about ¾ square mile. https://transition.fcc.gov/pshs/911/Apps%20Wrkshp%202015/911_Help_SMS_WhitePaper0515.pdf https://transition.fcc.gov/pshs/911/Apps%20Wrkshp%202015/911... Practically useless unless you are willing impose a strict curfew within a one mile radius
sifar 6y ago
Some form of IVRS. You'll need to call in a number.

mkolodny 6y ago

> I read in a research pointed out in an Ars Technica article that contact tracing using technology starts providing more utility when 60% of the population uses it. According to the research Ars Technica referenced, digital contact tracing doesn't start becoming effective at 60% - at 60% usage, digital contact tracing can stop the pandemic [0]. If even just two people use digital contact tracing, then it can be effective: Say one of the two people with the contact tracing app test positive for COVID-19. If the app knows that the person who tested positive came into contact with the other person who has the app, then we'd know that we should test the other person, too. If the contact also tests positive, we can isolate them to prevent further spread. [0] https://www.research.ox.ac.uk/Article/2020-04-16-digital-contact-tracing-can-slow-or-even-stop-coronavirus-transmission-and-ease-us-out-of-lockdown https://www.research.ox.ac.uk/Article/2020-04-16-digital-con...

nosuchthing 6y ago
According to the research Ars Technica referenced, digital contact tracing doesn't start becoming effective at 60% - at 60% usage, digital contact tracing can stop the pandemic There's no silver bullet with this virus. Contact tracing has proven ineffective in Singapore [1], even with additional layers of surveillance and thousands of dedicated staff reviewing CCTV footage, cell tower location data, and calling those suspected exposed to confirmed cases. https://www.economist.com/asia/2020/04/11/not-even-singapore-has-been-able-to-avoid-a-lockdown https://www.economist.com/asia/2020/04/11/not-even-singapore... All the while efficient contact-tracing teams—including members of the police and the army—identified and isolated thousands of people possibly infected with the virus. Members of the armed forces have been making up to 2,000 calls a day to hunt for potential carriers. Those told to stay at home for 14 days have been monitored assiduously to ensure compliance. (Unco-operative types face prosecution or the loss of their residency rights, if they are not citizens.) Yet in spite of everything, the virus continues to spread. Singapore’s approach continues to evolve. Take face masks. Initially Singaporeans were advised that they did not need to wear them unless unwell. Then on April 3rd, in his third televised address on covid-19, Lee Hsien Loong, the prime minister, said that the government would no longer discourage their use and would, in fact, distribute reusable ones to every household. Singapore’s testing regime may alter too. Currently people’s travel history and symptoms are among the factors considered before they are tested for the coronavirus. But health officials say the approach is reviewed regularly and that wider testing might be adopted in future. The difficulty with SARS-CoV-2 is once exposed, there's a window of several days of asymptomatic contagious transmissions. This is a biological health problem, and an app won't stop the spread. Viral fomites are like dust particles, airborne and remaining infectious on surfaces for upwards of 1-9 days depending on environmental factors [2]. Epidemiologists have predicted a global pandemic would happen sooner or later [3], and without a safe treatment the most effective action is to use Non-Pharmaceutical Interventions in any region where the virus might spread. Obviously due to modern air travel, it's now nearly everywhere. [1] https://www.economist.com/asia/2020/04/11/not-even-singapore-has-been-able-to-avoid-a-lockdown https://www.economist.com/asia/2020/04/11/not-even-singapore... [2] https://news.llu.edu/health-wellness/covid-19-virus-remains-active-some-surfaces-longer-than-previously-thought https://news.llu.edu/health-wellness/covid-19-virus-remains-... [3] https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0995_article https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0995_article https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/11425 https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/11425 https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/45220 https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/45220 https://cme-mec.ca/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/CME_Pandemic_Guide_Eng_2009Final.pdf https://cme-mec.ca/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/CME_Pandemic_G... https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/sites/portal/files/documents/Guide-to-pandemic-preparedness-revised.pdf https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/sites/portal/files/documents/Guid...

forgot_user1234 6y ago

a few things - Indians usually live in large families. - i think, you are not accounting for children and old people. who live with there families. - I live in india and i can't give a flying brick about privacy. -if i were to trade my privacy for 2 weeks of suffering. I WOULD. - You need to be alive to have privacy.

newacct583 6y ago

> The number of smartphone users in India is around 500 million out of a nearly 1.4 billion population. Most of the smartphones are also cheap low end models that likely won’t support this app You don't need 100% of anything to control an outbreak. If the app allows you to catch transmission events from the 22.3% or whatever of smartphone users who have compatible devices, and that pushes R0 down below 1.0, then you win. Every little bit helps. Nothing in isolation is going to do it. I'd be curious about that Ars article you mention. I can't believe it would make the statement in that way, because that's not really a correct understanding of the problem.

wobbly_bush 6y ago

> This is just “security theater”, to put it in blunt terms The security theater argument would make sense if there is an audience for the theater - but that is not the case. For example, there are no criticism of the government that it is not doing enough that the government needs to resort to a theater. > The number of smartphone users in India is around 500 million out of a nearly 1.4 billion population It's about concentration of the phones that matter. If the biggest risk of infection is in the cities, and if the concentration of phones in cities is high enough, then it is effective. Looking at the whole country as a single aggregate number doesn't make sense. Your points about privacy I agree with.

tinus_hn 6y ago

How is this implemented on iOS where the operating system doesn’t allow apps to do this?