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TBF, Apple’s Metal was developed before Bulkan while tackling the same problem, and for the NVidia chips, the reason on the bad relationship of NVidia/Apple is

TBF, Apple’s Metal was developed before Bulkan while tackling the same problem, and for the NVidia chips, the reason on the bad relationship of NVidia/Apple is mostly on NVidia, right?

willis936 7y ago
Does it really solve the same problem? Can I run metal API on my windows or linux machines? Also, to answer your question: no. Nvidia is in the GPU selling business. They wouldn’t mind having their high priced GPUs in high priced laptops. Apple keeps control of what hardware they sell, which dictates what software gets developed. Why would Nvidia or Apple spend resources to make software for a computer that no one is selling? It’s Apple who refuses to buy rather than Nvidia being unwilling to sell.
- olliej 7y ago
  Can you run direct3d on your Linux and Mac systems?
  - kbumsik 7y ago
    The point is that Windows has an alternative to their proprietary APIs, but mac doesn't
  - jonahrd 7y ago
    I can run OpenGL and Vulkan on my Windows system. MacOS is the only platform that has officially deprecated OpenGL support, and there is no plan for any future Vulkan support.
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      Windows only has support on legacy Win32 thanks to the ICD driver model. Vulkan and OpenGL aren't supported on Win32 and UWP sandboxes. Game consoles never had OpenGL support, other than a timid attempt from Sony with GL ES 1.0 using Cg as shading language.
  - willis936 7y ago
    We’re talking about Vulkan. Why are you asking about D3D?
    - olliej 7y ago
      There are Vulkan and OpenGL -> metal libraries. The original post gave windows (where the better performing native api is direct3d) As an example.
      - willis936 7y ago
        >TBF, Apple’s Metal was developed before Bulkan while tackling the same problem
  - yellowapple 7y ago
    Technically yes: http://www.nongnu.org/wined3d/ http://www.nongnu.org/wined3d/
- pcr910303 7y ago
  The problem space Vulkan and Metal solves is not high level cross platform graphics (which OpenGL tries to solve), it’s low level control over the GPU. That’s the problem they’re trying to solve, it’s not about cross platform. You might ask, ‘Then why is OpenGL deprecated?’. The answer is that Apple is just deprecating it’s own support since there’s a more low level API, OpenGL should be implemented on top of Metal, which (for example) MoltenGL is.
  - willis936 7y ago
    MoltenVK is an exciting prospect, but until I see games running it I will be skeptical that it exists.
wtallis 7y ago
Vulkan is the vendor-independent derivative of AMD's Mantle, which pre-dates Apple's Metal. There were several proposed new 3D APIs around that time, but ISVs quickly converged around Vulkan. Apple's reticence to adopt or even permit it is worse than Microsoft's continued efforts to push Direct3D.
- jolux 7y ago
  Metal's first release was 2014, one year after Mantle in 2013. Vulkan's first release wasn't until 2016, and Mantle was proprietary.
- Jasper_ 7y ago
  The team that developed Mantle got ignored by AMD management, who then left and subsequently got hired by Apple to develop Metal. Vulkan's release was held up for over a year by AMD management and red tape, which was by then already a year later than Metal's release.
  - rleigh 7y ago
    None of that matters one iota. I'm not going to spend valuable time and resources on a non-standard graphics API for a platform with anaemic graphics hardware. Instead, I'm going to target Windows and Linux with Vulkan or OpenGL. If I do support MacOS, it will be via MoltenVK, and it will be a second tier platform. From my point of view, by dropping standard OpenGL they have turned their platform into a second-class citizen.
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      Then you will only target Linux. OpenGL and Vulkan only happen to work on Windows via the ICD driver model introduced in OpenGL 1.1, which Microsoft hasn't yet bothered to remove. Instead they aren't supporting it on UWP and Win32 sandbox model, which only allow DirectX. Microsoft's way forward is also to build OpenGL wrappers on top of DirectX like ANGLE. https://github.com/microsoft/angle/wiki https://github.com/microsoft/angle/wiki https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/in-the-works-opencl-and-opengl-mapping-layers-to-directx/ https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/in-the-works-opencl-a... And then there are the game consoles. Khronos has just messed up providing SDKs that are at the same productivity level as commercial APIs.
phire 7y ago
It doesn't matter if Metal was first, or better. The problem is that it's unique and different. The problem is that I (as an open source developer for a popular gaming-related project with an OSX port) can't realistically develop and support a metal backend without having to buy an expensive mac with a good modern GPU. And with OpenGL being deprecated on Mac, with old and (sometimes) broken drivers that are missing 10 year old features, along with apple breaking things and adding new signing/notarising requirements, it's hard to justify continuing to support mac. Same kind of thing goes for Nvidia/Apple. It doesn't matter who's fault it is for starting that feud, it's still hurting the users.
- pcr910303 7y ago
  I’ve mentioned it in a sibling comment, but I’ll just copy-paste my text: > The problem space Vulkan and Metal solves is not high level cross platform graphics (which OpenGL tries to solve), it’s low level control over the GPU. That’s the problem they’re trying to solve, it’s not about cross platform. You might ask, ‘Then why is OpenGL deprecated?’. The answer is that Apple is just deprecating it’s own support since there’s a more low level API, OpenGL should be implemented as a library on top of Metal, which (for example) libraries like MoltenGL is.

TBF, Apple’s Metal was developed before Bulkan while tackling the same problem, and for the NVidia chips, the reason on the bad relationship of NVidia/Apple is mostly on NVidia, right?

willis936 7y ago

Does it really solve the same problem? Can I run metal API on my windows or linux machines? Also, to answer your question: no. Nvidia is in the GPU selling business. They wouldn’t mind having their high priced GPUs in high priced laptops. Apple keeps control of what hardware they sell, which dictates what software gets developed. Why would Nvidia or Apple spend resources to make software for a computer that no one is selling? It’s Apple who refuses to buy rather than Nvidia being unwilling to sell.

olliej 7y ago
Can you run direct3d on your Linux and Mac systems?
- kbumsik 7y ago
  The point is that Windows has an alternative to their proprietary APIs, but mac doesn't
- jonahrd 7y ago
  I can run OpenGL and Vulkan on my Windows system. MacOS is the only platform that has officially deprecated OpenGL support, and there is no plan for any future Vulkan support.
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    Windows only has support on legacy Win32 thanks to the ICD driver model. Vulkan and OpenGL aren't supported on Win32 and UWP sandboxes. Game consoles never had OpenGL support, other than a timid attempt from Sony with GL ES 1.0 using Cg as shading language.
- willis936 7y ago
  We’re talking about Vulkan. Why are you asking about D3D?
  - olliej 7y ago
    There are Vulkan and OpenGL -> metal libraries. The original post gave windows (where the better performing native api is direct3d) As an example.
    - willis936 7y ago
      >TBF, Apple’s Metal was developed before Bulkan while tackling the same problem
- yellowapple 7y ago
  Technically yes: http://www.nongnu.org/wined3d/ http://www.nongnu.org/wined3d/
pcr910303 7y ago
The problem space Vulkan and Metal solves is not high level cross platform graphics (which OpenGL tries to solve), it’s low level control over the GPU. That’s the problem they’re trying to solve, it’s not about cross platform. You might ask, ‘Then why is OpenGL deprecated?’. The answer is that Apple is just deprecating it’s own support since there’s a more low level API, OpenGL should be implemented on top of Metal, which (for example) MoltenGL is.
- willis936 7y ago
  MoltenVK is an exciting prospect, but until I see games running it I will be skeptical that it exists.

wtallis 7y ago

Vulkan is the vendor-independent derivative of AMD's Mantle, which pre-dates Apple's Metal. There were several proposed new 3D APIs around that time, but ISVs quickly converged around Vulkan. Apple's reticence to adopt or even permit it is worse than Microsoft's continued efforts to push Direct3D.

jolux 7y ago
Metal's first release was 2014, one year after Mantle in 2013. Vulkan's first release wasn't until 2016, and Mantle was proprietary.
Jasper_ 7y ago
The team that developed Mantle got ignored by AMD management, who then left and subsequently got hired by Apple to develop Metal. Vulkan's release was held up for over a year by AMD management and red tape, which was by then already a year later than Metal's release.
- rleigh 7y ago
  None of that matters one iota. I'm not going to spend valuable time and resources on a non-standard graphics API for a platform with anaemic graphics hardware. Instead, I'm going to target Windows and Linux with Vulkan or OpenGL. If I do support MacOS, it will be via MoltenVK, and it will be a second tier platform. From my point of view, by dropping standard OpenGL they have turned their platform into a second-class citizen.
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    Then you will only target Linux. OpenGL and Vulkan only happen to work on Windows via the ICD driver model introduced in OpenGL 1.1, which Microsoft hasn't yet bothered to remove. Instead they aren't supporting it on UWP and Win32 sandbox model, which only allow DirectX. Microsoft's way forward is also to build OpenGL wrappers on top of DirectX like ANGLE. https://github.com/microsoft/angle/wiki https://github.com/microsoft/angle/wiki https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/in-the-works-opencl-and-opengl-mapping-layers-to-directx/ https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/in-the-works-opencl-a... And then there are the game consoles. Khronos has just messed up providing SDKs that are at the same productivity level as commercial APIs.

phire 7y ago

It doesn't matter if Metal was first, or better. The problem is that it's unique and different. The problem is that I (as an open source developer for a popular gaming-related project with an OSX port) can't realistically develop and support a metal backend without having to buy an expensive mac with a good modern GPU. And with OpenGL being deprecated on Mac, with old and (sometimes) broken drivers that are missing 10 year old features, along with apple breaking things and adding new signing/notarising requirements, it's hard to justify continuing to support mac. Same kind of thing goes for Nvidia/Apple. It doesn't matter who's fault it is for starting that feud, it's still hurting the users.

pcr910303 7y ago
I’ve mentioned it in a sibling comment, but I’ll just copy-paste my text: > The problem space Vulkan and Metal solves is not high level cross platform graphics (which OpenGL tries to solve), it’s low level control over the GPU. That’s the problem they’re trying to solve, it’s not about cross platform. You might ask, ‘Then why is OpenGL deprecated?’. The answer is that Apple is just deprecating it’s own support since there’s a more low level API, OpenGL should be implemented as a library on top of Metal, which (for example) libraries like MoltenGL is.