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The main reason is that Apple's pushing their own graphics API (Metal) rather than supporting the cross-platform Vulkan API. Apple also doesn't make any machine

The main reason is that Apple's pushing their own graphics API (Metal) rather than supporting the cross-platform Vulkan API. Apple also doesn't make any machines targeted for gaming use, and they haven't used NVidia graphics chips for quite a while and don't ship drivers for recent NVidia chips, so even Hackintosh users have trouble building a great Mac gaming system.

iphone_elegance 7y ago
Metal is one hurdle, Apple has a weird habit of putting many small ones up in front of you for whatever reason it gets old after awhile and the sales aren't there to justify jumping over them most mac users who want to game don't seem to have issues just buying a console either so it's not like a large group of customers isn't being reached iOS is an exception due to it's position in the market but I've been seeing less and less interest in mobile overtime too
jsgo 7y ago
Since after High Sierra (Mojave I think?), Apple eliminated the ability to use non-metal drivers on macOS wholesale. Nvidia’s drivers weren’t developed in Metal and there’s zero reason for them to do so (only way to use Nvidia is intentionally either as an addon to a Mac Pro or as an eGPU, which they don’t see a large market for it) and Apple has a long history of killing off support of something on their platforms, users be damned.
- bangonkeyboard 7y ago
  > only way to use Nvidia is intentionally either as an addon to a Mac Pro or as an eGPU, which they don’t see a large market for it Not quite. From Nvidia: "Apple fully control drivers for Mac OS. But if Apple allows, our engineers are ready and eager to help Apple deliver great drivers for Mac OS 10.14 (Mojave)...Unfortunately, Nvidia currently cannot release a driver unless it is approved by Apple." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nvidia#Apple/Nvidia_web_driver_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nvidia#Apple/Nvidia_web_driver... Apple is preventing Nvidia from releasing Mac Pro and eGPU driver support.
  - jsgo 7y ago
    Which means if Apple allows them to use non-metal drivers. Historically, there’s little reason to think Apple would waiver (wish they would) and the value for Nvidia to write their drivers using Metal is minimal. I’m kind of curious though: what value do their web drivers have to them now that they couldn’t just release them as OSS and allow a determined group to rewrite them as Metal.
    - bangonkeyboard 7y ago
      No, you've misunderstood again. Nvidia's eGPU web drivers already supported Metal in High Sierra [0]. Apple refuses to sign their drivers for Mojave and up. Without Apple's signature, GPU drivers will not run on macOS, OSS or not. [0] https://www.insanelymac.com/forum/uploads/monthly_2020_03/840568137_ScreenShot2020-03-14at3_08_33PM.png.4ea6c048cc4115cb20209c562b4167de.png https://www.insanelymac.com/forum/uploads/monthly_2020_03/84...
      - jsgo 7y ago
        Ah, that's interesting. I know there are some older Nvidia cards that do work on Mac, but most of the recent GTX/RTX/etc. ones don't. Are they similarly Metal (and just missing a signature)? Because whenever I was actually keeping up with this, the stalemate was over Nvidia not leveraging Metal.
pcr910303 7y ago
TBF, Apple’s Metal was developed before Bulkan while tackling the same problem, and for the NVidia chips, the reason on the bad relationship of NVidia/Apple is mostly on NVidia, right?
- willis936 7y ago
  Does it really solve the same problem? Can I run metal API on my windows or linux machines? Also, to answer your question: no. Nvidia is in the GPU selling business. They wouldn’t mind having their high priced GPUs in high priced laptops. Apple keeps control of what hardware they sell, which dictates what software gets developed. Why would Nvidia or Apple spend resources to make software for a computer that no one is selling? It’s Apple who refuses to buy rather than Nvidia being unwilling to sell.
  - olliej 7y ago
    Can you run direct3d on your Linux and Mac systems?
    - kbumsik 7y ago
      The point is that Windows has an alternative to their proprietary APIs, but mac doesn't
    - jonahrd 7y ago
      I can run OpenGL and Vulkan on my Windows system. MacOS is the only platform that has officially deprecated OpenGL support, and there is no plan for any future Vulkan support.
      - pjmlp 7y ago
        Windows only has support on legacy Win32 thanks to the ICD driver model. Vulkan and OpenGL aren't supported on Win32 and UWP sandboxes. Game consoles never had OpenGL support, other than a timid attempt from Sony with GL ES 1.0 using Cg as shading language.
    - 7y ago

iphone_elegance 7y ago

Metal is one hurdle, Apple has a weird habit of putting many small ones up in front of you for whatever reason it gets old after awhile and the sales aren't there to justify jumping over them most mac users who want to game don't seem to have issues just buying a console either so it's not like a large group of customers isn't being reached iOS is an exception due to it's position in the market but I've been seeing less and less interest in mobile overtime too

jsgo 7y ago

Since after High Sierra (Mojave I think?), Apple eliminated the ability to use non-metal drivers on macOS wholesale. Nvidia’s drivers weren’t developed in Metal and there’s zero reason for them to do so (only way to use Nvidia is intentionally either as an addon to a Mac Pro or as an eGPU, which they don’t see a large market for it) and Apple has a long history of killing off support of something on their platforms, users be damned.

bangonkeyboard 7y ago
> only way to use Nvidia is intentionally either as an addon to a Mac Pro or as an eGPU, which they don’t see a large market for it Not quite. From Nvidia: "Apple fully control drivers for Mac OS. But if Apple allows, our engineers are ready and eager to help Apple deliver great drivers for Mac OS 10.14 (Mojave)...Unfortunately, Nvidia currently cannot release a driver unless it is approved by Apple." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nvidia#Apple/Nvidia_web_driver_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nvidia#Apple/Nvidia_web_driver... Apple is preventing Nvidia from releasing Mac Pro and eGPU driver support.
- jsgo 7y ago
  Which means if Apple allows them to use non-metal drivers. Historically, there’s little reason to think Apple would waiver (wish they would) and the value for Nvidia to write their drivers using Metal is minimal. I’m kind of curious though: what value do their web drivers have to them now that they couldn’t just release them as OSS and allow a determined group to rewrite them as Metal.
  - bangonkeyboard 7y ago
    No, you've misunderstood again. Nvidia's eGPU web drivers already supported Metal in High Sierra [0]. Apple refuses to sign their drivers for Mojave and up. Without Apple's signature, GPU drivers will not run on macOS, OSS or not. [0] https://www.insanelymac.com/forum/uploads/monthly_2020_03/840568137_ScreenShot2020-03-14at3_08_33PM.png.4ea6c048cc4115cb20209c562b4167de.png https://www.insanelymac.com/forum/uploads/monthly_2020_03/84...
    - jsgo 7y ago
      Ah, that's interesting. I know there are some older Nvidia cards that do work on Mac, but most of the recent GTX/RTX/etc. ones don't. Are they similarly Metal (and just missing a signature)? Because whenever I was actually keeping up with this, the stalemate was over Nvidia not leveraging Metal.

pcr910303 7y ago

TBF, Apple’s Metal was developed before Bulkan while tackling the same problem, and for the NVidia chips, the reason on the bad relationship of NVidia/Apple is mostly on NVidia, right?

willis936 7y ago
Does it really solve the same problem? Can I run metal API on my windows or linux machines? Also, to answer your question: no. Nvidia is in the GPU selling business. They wouldn’t mind having their high priced GPUs in high priced laptops. Apple keeps control of what hardware they sell, which dictates what software gets developed. Why would Nvidia or Apple spend resources to make software for a computer that no one is selling? It’s Apple who refuses to buy rather than Nvidia being unwilling to sell.
- olliej 7y ago
  Can you run direct3d on your Linux and Mac systems?
  - kbumsik 7y ago
    The point is that Windows has an alternative to their proprietary APIs, but mac doesn't
  - jonahrd 7y ago
    I can run OpenGL and Vulkan on my Windows system. MacOS is the only platform that has officially deprecated OpenGL support, and there is no plan for any future Vulkan support.
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      Windows only has support on legacy Win32 thanks to the ICD driver model. Vulkan and OpenGL aren't supported on Win32 and UWP sandboxes. Game consoles never had OpenGL support, other than a timid attempt from Sony with GL ES 1.0 using Cg as shading language.
  - 7y ago