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Slightly off topic - While I broadly understand cpu architecture and instruction sets, I've often wondered how advanced CPU / GPU chips are actually developed a

Slightly off topic - While I broadly understand cpu architecture and instruction sets, I've often wondered how advanced CPU / GPU chips are actually developed and manufactured? And why are there so few major foundries, like Intel and TSMC (the only 2 I know)?

xxpor 6y ago
Chip manufacturing has the problem of being A) incredibly difficult B) incredibly capital intensive C) low margin Theres smaller fabs out there, but if you're going to do a new start up, why would you choose to compete with these guys, unless you think youve come up with a new process somehow that will beat them? The other fabs out there are also part of huge companies that do lots of other stuff (Samsung) or were spun off from them (GlobalFoundries/AMD). IMO any new major foundry would end up being a strategic geopolitical move with heavy subsidies rather than a pure business play.
- zozbot234 6y ago
  Obviously this is the case wrt. the newest process nodes, but there's plenty of older technology that's perfectly usable for some applications. Even preferable in some cases e.g. for analog devices.
  - xxpor 6y ago
    Oh totally. But I believe OP was mostly talking about the most obvious consumer facing stuff (phones, computers, GPUs etc) I doubt the DIP packaged 555 timers I played with in college were using a 14 nm process :D
jng 6y ago
TSMC is reportedly investing $20bln in the plant for the next node (more advanced, smaller, faster, less-power-hungry technology). Few companies can invest that kind of many. And for the ones that could, it's often better to invest it elsewhere and use the services of a multiple-client but single-purpose, laser-focused fab like TSMC.
Nokinside 6y ago
Latest fab costs around $20 billion. You need to manufacture in volume and take huge risks. The know-how inside fab companies goes far beyond patents and IP. Chinese are trying to get into the game with great effort, but they are still struggling at least 2 generations behind. Until just recently there were 4 players in the hidh end game GF, Intel, TSMC and Samsung. GF (Used to be part of AMD) quit the game in the middle of their 7nm effort because they could not keep up and changed their focus. Intel stumbled and partially failed their 10nm effort.
mleonhard 6y ago
Reducing transistor size yields a quadratic increase in transistor density, reducing cost per chip. [1] Chips with smaller transistors use less power. [2] Therefore foundries with the smallest transistors get more orders than competitors. They use the revenue to develop the next generation of tech. The revenues are huge. For example, TSMC earned USD 35,000,000,000 in revenue in 2019 [3, 4]. Starting a new company to compete with TSMC would require possibly the largest investment in history. [1] https://www.icknowledge.com/news/Technology%20and%20Cost%20Trends%20at%20Advanced%20Nodes%20-%20Revised.pdf https://www.icknowledge.com/news/Technology%20and%20Cost%20T... [2] Section 2.5 Power - https://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~wl/teachlocal/cuscomp/notes/chapter2.pdf https://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~wl/teachlocal/cuscomp/notes/chapte... [3] TSMC Annual Report 2019 page 91 - https://www.tsmc.com/download/ir/annualReports/2019/english/pdf/e_all.pdf https://www.tsmc.com/download/ir/annualReports/2019/english/... [4] https://www.xe.com/currency/twd-taiwan-new-dollar https://www.xe.com/currency/twd-taiwan-new-dollar

xxpor 6y ago

Chip manufacturing has the problem of being A) incredibly difficult B) incredibly capital intensive C) low margin Theres smaller fabs out there, but if you're going to do a new start up, why would you choose to compete with these guys, unless you think youve come up with a new process somehow that will beat them? The other fabs out there are also part of huge companies that do lots of other stuff (Samsung) or were spun off from them (GlobalFoundries/AMD). IMO any new major foundry would end up being a strategic geopolitical move with heavy subsidies rather than a pure business play.

zozbot234 6y ago
Obviously this is the case wrt. the newest process nodes, but there's plenty of older technology that's perfectly usable for some applications. Even preferable in some cases e.g. for analog devices.
- xxpor 6y ago
  Oh totally. But I believe OP was mostly talking about the most obvious consumer facing stuff (phones, computers, GPUs etc) I doubt the DIP packaged 555 timers I played with in college were using a 14 nm process :D

jng 6y ago

TSMC is reportedly investing $20bln in the plant for the next node (more advanced, smaller, faster, less-power-hungry technology). Few companies can invest that kind of many. And for the ones that could, it's often better to invest it elsewhere and use the services of a multiple-client but single-purpose, laser-focused fab like TSMC.

Nokinside 6y ago

Latest fab costs around $20 billion. You need to manufacture in volume and take huge risks. The know-how inside fab companies goes far beyond patents and IP. Chinese are trying to get into the game with great effort, but they are still struggling at least 2 generations behind. Until just recently there were 4 players in the hidh end game GF, Intel, TSMC and Samsung. GF (Used to be part of AMD) quit the game in the middle of their 7nm effort because they could not keep up and changed their focus. Intel stumbled and partially failed their 10nm effort.

mleonhard 6y ago

Reducing transistor size yields a quadratic increase in transistor density, reducing cost per chip. [1] Chips with smaller transistors use less power. [2] Therefore foundries with the smallest transistors get more orders than competitors. They use the revenue to develop the next generation of tech. The revenues are huge. For example, TSMC earned USD 35,000,000,000 in revenue in 2019 [3, 4]. Starting a new company to compete with TSMC would require possibly the largest investment in history. [1] https://www.icknowledge.com/news/Technology%20and%20Cost%20Trends%20at%20Advanced%20Nodes%20-%20Revised.pdf https://www.icknowledge.com/news/Technology%20and%20Cost%20T... [2] Section 2.5 Power - https://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~wl/teachlocal/cuscomp/notes/chapter2.pdf https://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~wl/teachlocal/cuscomp/notes/chapte... [3] TSMC Annual Report 2019 page 91 - https://www.tsmc.com/download/ir/annualReports/2019/english/pdf/e_all.pdf https://www.tsmc.com/download/ir/annualReports/2019/english/... [4] https://www.xe.com/currency/twd-taiwan-new-dollar https://www.xe.com/currency/twd-taiwan-new-dollar