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This looks like a useful utility but also underscores a problem with Ext/Sencha. Namely that it is a tad overengineered and does not work well with other tools

by mustpax 16y ago

This looks like a useful utility but also underscores a problem with Ext/Sencha. Namely that it is a tad overengineered and does not work well with other tools in the web development ecosystem. Ext's giant widget library creates and manages copious amounts of convoluted DOM nodes to provide desktop like components that never quite make it out of the uncanny valley. If you were starting out with some plain semantic markup and adding interaction with jQuery (or Prototype or Mootools) you would do just fine using plain Firebug. I am wary of tools that brag about solving problems they've caused in the first place.

sroussey 16y ago
Well, first of all, this tool also works with Dojo Toolkit, SproutCore, YUI, Google Closure Library, qooXdoo, etc. The key take away is that if you are doing anything more than splashy webpages with animation, then you will need to work with a framework (like all of these) instead of a toolkit (like jQuery). The same thing happened on the server side some time ago when people just wrote some html home pages with some scripting tags (aka PHP). Eventually, when you start to create something complex, people started using some "scripts" and then eventually started doing MVC and the like on the server. Keeping with PHP, this means that people started using Zend Framework, CodeIgnitor, CakePHP, Symphony, YII, etc. Some people complained that it was too much for lowly HTML, but time and capabilities advanced anyhow. Now that time is coming to the client, thanks to faster browsers, and HTML5 local storage. And mobile. Latency and offline mean storing things locally, and that means business logic at the client. Prepare to love our JS framework overlords. To make this tool, I dealt with all the frameworks listed. All have some flaws. ExtJS has copious markup (and CSS), and some non-optimal layout choices. ExtJS4, which you can download a preview of, has dealt with them. I admit, there is some of my ideas in there they ran with. One I did not propose, but (like Closure) they are using in v4 is rendering based on browsers. Old browsers get the copious markup so a real and good looking UI will be possible. And where it can be done in CSS3 instead, they use far less markup. The fast browsers become even faster.
- glenjamin 16y ago
  The support for the other UI libraries makes this really useful, the article as written makes no allusions to this.
  - sroussey 16y ago
    It was for the Sencha blog!
- edambauskas 16y ago
  No, thank you. I have to deal with ExtJS at my current job and I know I would never use this bloatware for any of my personal projects. It is just bloat. It tries to fool you by giving you a big library of pretty things that do nothing but blind your eyes from the real stuff that is going on. It was probably built by some people that don't understand the web, secretly hate it and need some desktop-programming abstractions to deal with it. This approach has one limitation: as soon as you try to do something that the framework designers didn't plan for, you'll run into problems and have to write more work-around code than you would need in a straightforward manner. Also, its documentation sucks: - it uses JavaScript where it isn't necessary, - it works slow, - it breaks normal browser navigation, - it shows too much information on one page for the components that are already bloated. Instead of doing something useful, the authors of this documentation chose to build something to show-off. My advice: if you are building applications with dumb forms -- ExtJS is for you. If you want to build rich applications, customized to your user needs -- avoid it.
  - quickprez 16y ago
    ExtJs is an API for WEB APPS not WEB PAGES. Ive wrote several big ExtJs apps, its not quick nor easy, but the result code is fully customisable, clean and re-usable. Which framework gives you as much powerful and customisable widgets, with a wide 'projet' approach as ExtJs ?
    - DjDarkman 16y ago
      > ExtJs is an API for WEB APPS not WEB PAGES. ExtJS is a library not an API and I fail to see any connection between the JavaScript library you use and web pages or web apps. > Ive wrote several big ExtJs apps, its not quick nor easy, but the result code is fully customisable, clean and re-usable. Does it support progressive enhancement? Is it accessible? > Which framework gives you as much powerful and customisable widgets, with a wide 'projet' approach as ExtJs ? http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/ http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/

by mustpax 16y ago

sroussey 16y ago

Well, first of all, this tool also works with Dojo Toolkit, SproutCore, YUI, Google Closure Library, qooXdoo, etc. The key take away is that if you are doing anything more than splashy webpages with animation, then you will need to work with a framework (like all of these) instead of a toolkit (like jQuery). The same thing happened on the server side some time ago when people just wrote some html home pages with some scripting tags (aka PHP). Eventually, when you start to create something complex, people started using some "scripts" and then eventually started doing MVC and the like on the server. Keeping with PHP, this means that people started using Zend Framework, CodeIgnitor, CakePHP, Symphony, YII, etc. Some people complained that it was too much for lowly HTML, but time and capabilities advanced anyhow. Now that time is coming to the client, thanks to faster browsers, and HTML5 local storage. And mobile. Latency and offline mean storing things locally, and that means business logic at the client. Prepare to love our JS framework overlords. To make this tool, I dealt with all the frameworks listed. All have some flaws. ExtJS has copious markup (and CSS), and some non-optimal layout choices. ExtJS4, which you can download a preview of, has dealt with them. I admit, there is some of my ideas in there they ran with. One I did not propose, but (like Closure) they are using in v4 is rendering based on browsers. Old browsers get the copious markup so a real and good looking UI will be possible. And where it can be done in CSS3 instead, they use far less markup. The fast browsers become even faster.

glenjamin 16y ago
The support for the other UI libraries makes this really useful, the article as written makes no allusions to this.
- sroussey 16y ago
  It was for the Sencha blog!
edambauskas 16y ago
No, thank you. I have to deal with ExtJS at my current job and I know I would never use this bloatware for any of my personal projects. It is just bloat. It tries to fool you by giving you a big library of pretty things that do nothing but blind your eyes from the real stuff that is going on. It was probably built by some people that don't understand the web, secretly hate it and need some desktop-programming abstractions to deal with it. This approach has one limitation: as soon as you try to do something that the framework designers didn't plan for, you'll run into problems and have to write more work-around code than you would need in a straightforward manner. Also, its documentation sucks: - it uses JavaScript where it isn't necessary, - it works slow, - it breaks normal browser navigation, - it shows too much information on one page for the components that are already bloated. Instead of doing something useful, the authors of this documentation chose to build something to show-off. My advice: if you are building applications with dumb forms -- ExtJS is for you. If you want to build rich applications, customized to your user needs -- avoid it.
- quickprez 16y ago
  ExtJs is an API for WEB APPS not WEB PAGES. Ive wrote several big ExtJs apps, its not quick nor easy, but the result code is fully customisable, clean and re-usable. Which framework gives you as much powerful and customisable widgets, with a wide 'projet' approach as ExtJs ?
  - DjDarkman 16y ago
    > ExtJs is an API for WEB APPS not WEB PAGES. ExtJS is a library not an API and I fail to see any connection between the JavaScript library you use and web pages or web apps. > Ive wrote several big ExtJs apps, its not quick nor easy, but the result code is fully customisable, clean and re-usable. Does it support progressive enhancement? Is it accessible? > Which framework gives you as much powerful and customisable widgets, with a wide 'projet' approach as ExtJs ? http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/ http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/