3 ms·

This type of cynicism is exhausting. It seems that if they're damned if they do and damned if they don't, Amazon might as well pocket the cash and not worry abo

by pb7 7y ago

This type of cynicism is exhausting. It seems that if they're damned if they do and damned if they don't, Amazon might as well pocket the cash and not worry about doing good things because people will trash them regardless.

Analemma_ 7y ago
It's not only exhausting, it's counter-productive and creates moral hazard. If companies think they will be put through the wringer regardless of whether they do the good thing or the evil thing, they will always do the evil thing. Rewarding good behavior incentivizes more of the same, cynically dismissing it ensures you won't get any more.
jjj1232 7y ago
I’m not the original commenter so I’m only speaking for myself here but if a company has shown itself to be ruthless and harmful (to its employees, the environment, small businesses) I don’t think you need to give them the benefit of the doubt when they do a solitary good thing. I’ll give Amazon props when they start supporting warehouse unionization, lobby the govt for a carbon tax, sell off Whole Foods, AWS, amazon basics + all in-house home goods into separate entities. Of course that will never happen because anything that actually stops the harm that Amazon does would be detrimental to the business.
- pb7 7y ago
  If it's all or nothing like you're expecting, I expect it will never happen. If the public majority holds your opinion (I suspect it might) then Amazon will continue to operate lawfully but unethically since there's nothing to gain unless they effectively cease existing. The current modus operandi seems to be working for them so I don't see that changing just to have the public spit in their face for not doing enough overnight.
- enitihas 7y ago
  So you don't support any big company? Which company is supporting unionisation? Hell, most big tech companies don't even employ non professional workers directly, instead as a contractor. So which is the noble big company you support? Which has sold of all diversified businesses? A company doing what you are suggesting will not even survive for long.
  - jjj1232 7y ago
    No, I can’t think of any big company I support. Amazon, Google, Apple, Exxon, etc. are all built on exploitation. My point wasn’t that Amazon is more evil than other corporations, I think that’s only marginally true. Probably only because of how much more efficient they are than a lot of companies.
    - alexpetralia 7y ago
      While I agree with you, I think your criticism is better directed toward capitalism, not the winners within it. This is a structural problem.
      - enitihas 7y ago
        The problem remains in any other system though. In Communism, the winners would be the politburo members instead of bigco executives.
        miscPerson 7y ago
        In fact, that’s the argument for capitalism: All of these systems suck, so let’s favor people who can lead voluntary large tribes over the politically connected, such as the politburo.
      - jjj1232 7y ago
        You’re probably right! I do think our culture of praising the wealthy for handing out pennies is a huge smokescreen that avoids actual change, but you’re right that posting comments on HN is not going to do much to change public opinion.
    - pb7 7y ago
      If the companies society relies on are built on exploitation, maybe it's time to revisit the entire notion of exploitation and what it means. I feel exploited by my government because I put in much more than I receive but I have come to terms with it because it's necessary. Worse yet, I have much less choice in the matter than someone using Apple iPhones or Google Search or Amazon Prime.
ignoramous 7y ago
You don't need to be an insider to realise that the management has been tuned to squeeze every ounce of sweat in the name of leadership principles. If you were an insider, you'd probably be sick to your stomach, if you knew where to look. Now, Amazon (being so huge that it is) cannot explicitly promote such behaviour from their managers but there's an epidemic of assholes for a reason, like one of my friends likes to put it. So, yes, when things like this leak out [0][1], you'd bet your bottom dollar that Amazon does really care about optics [2]. That said, I understand their predicament and I admire tough decisions they need to take to keep the business going [3] in a time where logistics is an absolute nightmare even at a smaller scale, but I don't, for one second, underestimate their will to bend rules and regulations to hit whatever bottom line metric they are measuring at any given point in time [4]. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22763057 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22763057 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22738592 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22738592 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21818233 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21818233 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22604866 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22604866 [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22956182 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22956182

by pb7 7y ago

Analemma_ 7y ago

It's not only exhausting, it's counter-productive and creates moral hazard. If companies think they will be put through the wringer regardless of whether they do the good thing or the evil thing, they will always do the evil thing. Rewarding good behavior incentivizes more of the same, cynically dismissing it ensures you won't get any more.

jjj1232 7y ago

I’m not the original commenter so I’m only speaking for myself here but if a company has shown itself to be ruthless and harmful (to its employees, the environment, small businesses) I don’t think you need to give them the benefit of the doubt when they do a solitary good thing. I’ll give Amazon props when they start supporting warehouse unionization, lobby the govt for a carbon tax, sell off Whole Foods, AWS, amazon basics + all in-house home goods into separate entities. Of course that will never happen because anything that actually stops the harm that Amazon does would be detrimental to the business.

pb7 7y ago
If it's all or nothing like you're expecting, I expect it will never happen. If the public majority holds your opinion (I suspect it might) then Amazon will continue to operate lawfully but unethically since there's nothing to gain unless they effectively cease existing. The current modus operandi seems to be working for them so I don't see that changing just to have the public spit in their face for not doing enough overnight.
enitihas 7y ago
So you don't support any big company? Which company is supporting unionisation? Hell, most big tech companies don't even employ non professional workers directly, instead as a contractor. So which is the noble big company you support? Which has sold of all diversified businesses? A company doing what you are suggesting will not even survive for long.
- jjj1232 7y ago
  No, I can’t think of any big company I support. Amazon, Google, Apple, Exxon, etc. are all built on exploitation. My point wasn’t that Amazon is more evil than other corporations, I think that’s only marginally true. Probably only because of how much more efficient they are than a lot of companies.
  - alexpetralia 7y ago
    While I agree with you, I think your criticism is better directed toward capitalism, not the winners within it. This is a structural problem.
    - enitihas 7y ago
      The problem remains in any other system though. In Communism, the winners would be the politburo members instead of bigco executives.
      - miscPerson 7y ago
        In fact, that’s the argument for capitalism: All of these systems suck, so let’s favor people who can lead voluntary large tribes over the politically connected, such as the politburo.
    - jjj1232 7y ago
      You’re probably right! I do think our culture of praising the wealthy for handing out pennies is a huge smokescreen that avoids actual change, but you’re right that posting comments on HN is not going to do much to change public opinion.
  - pb7 7y ago
    If the companies society relies on are built on exploitation, maybe it's time to revisit the entire notion of exploitation and what it means. I feel exploited by my government because I put in much more than I receive but I have come to terms with it because it's necessary. Worse yet, I have much less choice in the matter than someone using Apple iPhones or Google Search or Amazon Prime.

ignoramous 7y ago

You don't need to be an insider to realise that the management has been tuned to squeeze every ounce of sweat in the name of leadership principles. If you were an insider, you'd probably be sick to your stomach, if you knew where to look. Now, Amazon (being so huge that it is) cannot explicitly promote such behaviour from their managers but there's an epidemic of assholes for a reason, like one of my friends likes to put it. So, yes, when things like this leak out [0][1], you'd bet your bottom dollar that Amazon does really care about optics [2]. That said, I understand their predicament and I admire tough decisions they need to take to keep the business going [3] in a time where logistics is an absolute nightmare even at a smaller scale, but I don't, for one second, underestimate their will to bend rules and regulations to hit whatever bottom line metric they are measuring at any given point in time [4]. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22763057 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22763057 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22738592 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22738592 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21818233 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21818233 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22604866 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22604866 [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22956182 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22956182