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You say you're not a fan of throwing around the term "Nazi" lazily, but immediately in the previous sentence you suggest that you understand Nazism as a combina

You say you're not a fan of throwing around the term "Nazi" lazily, but immediately in the previous sentence you suggest that you understand Nazism as a combination of "nationalism" and "socialism". Since this is a pretty common cudgel among far-right media commentators, used to disingenuously associate Nazi atrocities with left-wing politics, it's very difficult to read that in anything but bad faith. In fact this misrepresentation is so common that r/askhistorians has an entire section of their FAQ dedicated to explaining it: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/wiki/faq/europe#wiki_how_socialist_was_national_socialism.3F https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/wiki/faq/europe#wiki_...

sparkie 6y ago
I deleted part of comment above because it was in no way intended to begin an argument about Nazism nor associate it with anybody in particular. I'm not qualified to speak on the subject. I see the word Nazi used all too often where it really does not apply (from both left and right wing commentators), and I was merely suggesting it should not be used so liberally.
axguscbklp 6y ago
I agree that calling Nazism left-wing is a misrepresentation, and it's one that is almost always used in bad faith. However, if by "socialism" we mean "a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole", then it's fair to call fascism a combination of nationalism and socialism. As far as I understand, Mussolini started out as a socialist, but a bit later in life he rejected international socialism and instead embraced the combination of a form of socialism (in the sense given above) with nationalism. Fascism is not socialism, but it does incorporate socialist elements and was influenced by the socialist movement. Now, if one insists that the term "socialism" be restricted to political and economic systems that do away with (or try to do away with) hierarchy then yes, fascism is not socialist, since fascism explicitly values hierarchy. So basically, it depends on what one means by "socialism".
- sparkie 6y ago
  Does "socialism" ever mean "free-market capitalism"? It often seems that libertarians are on the receiving end of the "Nazi" label because they object to socialism or government intervention in markets. It was not my intention to begin an argument, but merely suggest that we should all tone down on the "Nazi" slur as it no longer seems to carry any weight.
  - axguscbklp 6y ago
    >Does "socialism" ever mean "free-market capitalism"? I would say no. >It often seems that libertarians are on the receiving end of the "Nazi" label because they object to socialism or government intervention in markets. I think this happens mainly for three reasons. 1) Some people support socialism so furiously that they genuinely think pretty much everyone who opposes socialism is part of the same group of "reactionaries", etc. 2) Some people dislike libertarians and try to smear them by calling them Nazis. 3) A certain subset of self-identified libertarians has had, historically, and continues to have now, an involvement with populist conservatism and with right-wing regimes such as Pinochet's. There is also a subset of self-identified libertarians who promote racism, a subset who lean socially conservative, etc. Some self-proclaimed libertarians oppose socialism so furiously that they view right-wing dictatorship as being a better option. Personally, I'd say that people like that are not libertarians at all, but they continue to self-identify as libertarians nonetheless.
    - sparkie 6y ago
      > Some self-proclaimed libertarians oppose socialism so furiously that they view right-wing dictatorship as being a better option. Personally, I'd say that people like that are not libertarians at all, but they continue to self-identify as libertarians nonetheless. Wholeheartedly agree here. Libertarianism is by essence, anti-authoritarianism. You can't be a libertarian and at the same time, want an authority to dictate the rulebook. For me, socialism and fascism are two sides of the same coin, that Horseshoe Theory is a real phenomenon. Of course, the two sides both vehemently disagree that they are alike (which is certainly the case if you specifically consider the ethno-nationalism of the Nazi's for instance), but the overall framework of both socialism and fascism is the centralized rule of a population through a dogmatic ideology with force or threat of force for noncompliance. There's an interesting phenomena in reverse of the "authoritarian libertarian" too, which is the "restricted speech liberal" - those self-labelling as liberals who are opposed to free speech.

sparkie 6y ago

I deleted part of comment above because it was in no way intended to begin an argument about Nazism nor associate it with anybody in particular. I'm not qualified to speak on the subject. I see the word Nazi used all too often where it really does not apply (from both left and right wing commentators), and I was merely suggesting it should not be used so liberally.

axguscbklp 6y ago

I agree that calling Nazism left-wing is a misrepresentation, and it's one that is almost always used in bad faith. However, if by "socialism" we mean "a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole", then it's fair to call fascism a combination of nationalism and socialism. As far as I understand, Mussolini started out as a socialist, but a bit later in life he rejected international socialism and instead embraced the combination of a form of socialism (in the sense given above) with nationalism. Fascism is not socialism, but it does incorporate socialist elements and was influenced by the socialist movement. Now, if one insists that the term "socialism" be restricted to political and economic systems that do away with (or try to do away with) hierarchy then yes, fascism is not socialist, since fascism explicitly values hierarchy. So basically, it depends on what one means by "socialism".

sparkie 6y ago
Does "socialism" ever mean "free-market capitalism"? It often seems that libertarians are on the receiving end of the "Nazi" label because they object to socialism or government intervention in markets. It was not my intention to begin an argument, but merely suggest that we should all tone down on the "Nazi" slur as it no longer seems to carry any weight.
- axguscbklp 6y ago
  >Does "socialism" ever mean "free-market capitalism"? I would say no. >It often seems that libertarians are on the receiving end of the "Nazi" label because they object to socialism or government intervention in markets. I think this happens mainly for three reasons. 1) Some people support socialism so furiously that they genuinely think pretty much everyone who opposes socialism is part of the same group of "reactionaries", etc. 2) Some people dislike libertarians and try to smear them by calling them Nazis. 3) A certain subset of self-identified libertarians has had, historically, and continues to have now, an involvement with populist conservatism and with right-wing regimes such as Pinochet's. There is also a subset of self-identified libertarians who promote racism, a subset who lean socially conservative, etc. Some self-proclaimed libertarians oppose socialism so furiously that they view right-wing dictatorship as being a better option. Personally, I'd say that people like that are not libertarians at all, but they continue to self-identify as libertarians nonetheless.
  - sparkie 6y ago
    > Some self-proclaimed libertarians oppose socialism so furiously that they view right-wing dictatorship as being a better option. Personally, I'd say that people like that are not libertarians at all, but they continue to self-identify as libertarians nonetheless. Wholeheartedly agree here. Libertarianism is by essence, anti-authoritarianism. You can't be a libertarian and at the same time, want an authority to dictate the rulebook. For me, socialism and fascism are two sides of the same coin, that Horseshoe Theory is a real phenomenon. Of course, the two sides both vehemently disagree that they are alike (which is certainly the case if you specifically consider the ethno-nationalism of the Nazi's for instance), but the overall framework of both socialism and fascism is the centralized rule of a population through a dogmatic ideology with force or threat of force for noncompliance. There's an interesting phenomena in reverse of the "authoritarian libertarian" too, which is the "restricted speech liberal" - those self-labelling as liberals who are opposed to free speech.