4 ms·

Silly to look at % down from ATH when we had a massive bubble that peaked and popped. If you look at return overall, crypto beats ALL stock market investmets.

arcticbull 6y ago
If you look at it back from when nobody cared, sure, but you can't tell me you wouldn't rather invest in Uber's seed round than BTC.
- chrisco255 6y ago
  Uh, I'd take BTC from 2009-2012 over Uber's seed round any day. Bitcoin is the best-performing asset class of all time. See: https://www.investopedia.com/news/bitcoin-pizza-day-celebrating-20-million-pizza-order/ https://www.investopedia.com/news/bitcoin-pizza-day-celebrat...
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    I mean, look, the point is that you can't compare when bitcoin first opened up to an asset, it was a toy that surprisingly people pay for today even though it's being propped up by Tether and Bitfinex. It's akin to comparing the par value (1/10th of a cent) per share that the Uber founders received at formation - a 5,000,000% return. That makes the returns quite comparable. Starting something can be lucrative. It is by no means the best performing asset. Anyone with shares from the formation of a startup has outperformed.
    - chrisco255 6y ago
      Yeah but the difference is the founders had to put in sweat equity while Bitcoin is a passive investment.
      - arcticbull 6y ago
        Equity is passive investment once you own it whether you remain employed or not. It's capital gains once you own the shares, not ordinary income. You can also include anyone you want in the cap table at formation, not just employees -- if you wanted, you could easily issue your advisory shares at that time. Not to mention, at formation, you're more than welcome to pay market salaries to your founders, that's your perogative as a founder.
        chrisco255 6y ago
        Not a startup. They don't just go from seed round to IPO on idle. The founders had to invest thousands of hours and immense stress to get it to IPO. Meanwhile a holder of 1000 BTC from 2012 probably continued to work their day job until 2017 when they incidentally became multi-millionaires.
        arcticbull 6y ago
        A start-up is just any company that's founded, usually with aspirations, and what I'm saying is that, technically, you can throw anyone you want on your cap table at formation [note]. I'm not saying it's typical or common, just that it's fundamentally possible. Same with founder compensation. Bitcoin as a "passive investment" is such a lame comparison because it does, literally, nothing, just like hanging onto some beanie babies. Beanie babies, but much more wasteful. [note] Anyone who's an employee or an accredited investor.
        chrisco255 6y ago
        There were thousands of people who participated in Bitcoin's early days, tens of thousands by 2012. And back then they were giving away Bitcoin on faucets. You could also mine it with a basic graphics card. It's not a lame comparison at all. If you bought Bitcoin in 2010, you've seen a 8,900,000% ROI. The asset may go up another 10-1000x from here. Bitcoin will outlast Uber. And if you're still comparing it to Beanie Babies 11 years later, it's likely you don't understand finance or blockchain, and you haven't been paying attention to what's happening in the past few years.
- DennisP 6y ago
  From a brief google, Uber's seed round is up 5000X so that beats my example. But Ethereum did pretty well; their equivalent of a seed round was in 2014, when one Bitcoin was worth $600, and as of today they're up 700X since then. That's down 85% from their peak of 4600X. And I'm guessing the Uber seed round wasn't available to the average investor. If you just look at the public companies available to everyone, another quick google says the best in the last decade was Netflix at 40X gain.
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    > And I'm guessing the Uber seed round wasn't available to the average investor. If you ask the SEC the majority of ICOs aren't available to the average investor either, and never should have been. Because the vast majority are pure, hot, unadulterated garbage like Dentacoin and IOTA - which emulates a ternary computer for literally no reason anyone can identify.
    - DennisP 6y ago
      Nevertheless it was available and the SEC is fine with Ethereum today. In any case, as far as the Crypto Fund goes my second paragraph was irrelevant anyway.
      - arcticbull 6y ago
        If you include crime, you can't beat the ROI of a successful bank robbery, though, even if the DOJ retroactively decides not to prosecute.

arcticbull 6y ago

If you look at it back from when nobody cared, sure, but you can't tell me you wouldn't rather invest in Uber's seed round than BTC.

chrisco255 6y ago
Uh, I'd take BTC from 2009-2012 over Uber's seed round any day. Bitcoin is the best-performing asset class of all time. See: https://www.investopedia.com/news/bitcoin-pizza-day-celebrating-20-million-pizza-order/ https://www.investopedia.com/news/bitcoin-pizza-day-celebrat...
- arcticbull 6y ago
  I mean, look, the point is that you can't compare when bitcoin first opened up to an asset, it was a toy that surprisingly people pay for today even though it's being propped up by Tether and Bitfinex. It's akin to comparing the par value (1/10th of a cent) per share that the Uber founders received at formation - a 5,000,000% return. That makes the returns quite comparable. Starting something can be lucrative. It is by no means the best performing asset. Anyone with shares from the formation of a startup has outperformed.
  - chrisco255 6y ago
    Yeah but the difference is the founders had to put in sweat equity while Bitcoin is a passive investment.
    - arcticbull 6y ago
      Equity is passive investment once you own it whether you remain employed or not. It's capital gains once you own the shares, not ordinary income. You can also include anyone you want in the cap table at formation, not just employees -- if you wanted, you could easily issue your advisory shares at that time. Not to mention, at formation, you're more than welcome to pay market salaries to your founders, that's your perogative as a founder.
      - chrisco255 6y ago
        Not a startup. They don't just go from seed round to IPO on idle. The founders had to invest thousands of hours and immense stress to get it to IPO. Meanwhile a holder of 1000 BTC from 2012 probably continued to work their day job until 2017 when they incidentally became multi-millionaires.
        arcticbull 6y ago
        A start-up is just any company that's founded, usually with aspirations, and what I'm saying is that, technically, you can throw anyone you want on your cap table at formation [note]. I'm not saying it's typical or common, just that it's fundamentally possible. Same with founder compensation. Bitcoin as a "passive investment" is such a lame comparison because it does, literally, nothing, just like hanging onto some beanie babies. Beanie babies, but much more wasteful. [note] Anyone who's an employee or an accredited investor.
        chrisco255 6y ago
        There were thousands of people who participated in Bitcoin's early days, tens of thousands by 2012. And back then they were giving away Bitcoin on faucets. You could also mine it with a basic graphics card. It's not a lame comparison at all. If you bought Bitcoin in 2010, you've seen a 8,900,000% ROI. The asset may go up another 10-1000x from here. Bitcoin will outlast Uber. And if you're still comparing it to Beanie Babies 11 years later, it's likely you don't understand finance or blockchain, and you haven't been paying attention to what's happening in the past few years.
DennisP 6y ago
From a brief google, Uber's seed round is up 5000X so that beats my example. But Ethereum did pretty well; their equivalent of a seed round was in 2014, when one Bitcoin was worth $600, and as of today they're up 700X since then. That's down 85% from their peak of 4600X. And I'm guessing the Uber seed round wasn't available to the average investor. If you just look at the public companies available to everyone, another quick google says the best in the last decade was Netflix at 40X gain.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  > And I'm guessing the Uber seed round wasn't available to the average investor. If you ask the SEC the majority of ICOs aren't available to the average investor either, and never should have been. Because the vast majority are pure, hot, unadulterated garbage like Dentacoin and IOTA - which emulates a ternary computer for literally no reason anyone can identify.
  - DennisP 6y ago
    Nevertheless it was available and the SEC is fine with Ethereum today. In any case, as far as the Crypto Fund goes my second paragraph was irrelevant anyway.
    - arcticbull 6y ago
      If you include crime, you can't beat the ROI of a successful bank robbery, though, even if the DOJ retroactively decides not to prosecute.