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Cryptocurrencies transfer the risk of fraud from a company to the user. Good luck getting your funds back if someone scams you. I agree that it's not clearly be

by vngzs 6y ago

Cryptocurrencies transfer the risk of fraud from a company to the user. Good luck getting your funds back if someone scams you. I agree that it's not clearly better than what we have.

xur17 6y ago
But there are definitely use cases where I would love to have the option to reduce fees and take on fraud risk myself. In my mind, the simplest way to define it is "cash for the internet".
- hocuspocus 6y ago
  In many countries wire transfers cost nothing to the customer and maybe 1-2 cents to the business account holder. No need for blockchain if you just want cheap payments without protections.
  - xur17 6y ago
    In the US they cost anywhere from $15 - $30.
- chrischen 6y ago
  How do you think those online scammers that rob grandpa and grandma get their money? They don't use crypto—in fact some use gift cards!
qqii 6y ago
This is not always strictly true, with projects like OpenBazaar the risks can be transfered to an explicit third party with a proven record of being impartial.
- joosters 6y ago
  Please name me some of these impartial third parties, then? Can’t be hard for you to track them down if they really do exist, after all they should be on some immutable blockchain somewhere...
  - qqii 6y ago
    Firstly there's a difference between impartial third parties and third parties which a record of being impartial. Secondly I wouldn't endorse using OpenBazaar in its current state. The ideas and concepts are there but the user experience is inconsistent and awful. https://medium.com/openbazaarproject/verified-moderators-c83ea2f2c7f3 https://medium.com/openbazaarproject/verified-moderators-c83... Here's a post detailing what I was taking about. Unfortunately OB's interface for these things are awful and I'm not invested in its platform.
    - joosters 6y ago
      That was the point I was making: the idea of an 'impartial third party' on an anonymous blockchain is a pathetic joke. OpenBazaar's half-assed solution is to: 1) Moderate the moderators: Great, now we have two problems. 2) Try to tie moderators to a real-world ID: Realising they have to roll back the purported 'features' of crypto-currency (anonymous, peer-to-peer, unrestricted, etc), in order to try to get somewhere close to normal, real-world, commercial transactions.
- yellow_postit 6y ago
  This seems to get us right back to the current system however just “on a blockchain”
TylerE 6y ago
I agree that’s it’s incredibly worse than what we have now. No fraud protection is a complete consumer non-starter.
- lucb1e 6y ago
  > is a complete consumer non-starter Seems to work fine in the Netherlands. If you pay through the most common platform (iDeal.nl) or do an ordinary wire/SEPA transfer, the bank can't simply do a chargeback. The money is gone, but consumers are not generally afraid to buy things online using these methods. I'm not saying that "chargebacks fundamentally impossible" is a good thing. All I'm saying is that it seems to work in my country despite such a system, so it may (I don't know, just mentioning it as a data point / an option) be an acceptable trade-off because I hear from Factorio and others that credit card fraud and chargebacks are a real problem.
  - TylerE 6y ago
    Those transactions are instant and practically free. Crypto is neither.

by vngzs 6y ago

Cryptocurrencies transfer the risk of fraud from a company to the user. Good luck getting your funds back if someone scams you. I agree that it's not clearly better than what we have.

xur17 6y ago

But there are definitely use cases where I would love to have the option to reduce fees and take on fraud risk myself. In my mind, the simplest way to define it is "cash for the internet".

hocuspocus 6y ago
In many countries wire transfers cost nothing to the customer and maybe 1-2 cents to the business account holder. No need for blockchain if you just want cheap payments without protections.
- xur17 6y ago
  In the US they cost anywhere from $15 - $30.
chrischen 6y ago
How do you think those online scammers that rob grandpa and grandma get their money? They don't use crypto—in fact some use gift cards!

qqii 6y ago

This is not always strictly true, with projects like OpenBazaar the risks can be transfered to an explicit third party with a proven record of being impartial.

joosters 6y ago
Please name me some of these impartial third parties, then? Can’t be hard for you to track them down if they really do exist, after all they should be on some immutable blockchain somewhere...
- qqii 6y ago
  Firstly there's a difference between impartial third parties and third parties which a record of being impartial. Secondly I wouldn't endorse using OpenBazaar in its current state. The ideas and concepts are there but the user experience is inconsistent and awful. https://medium.com/openbazaarproject/verified-moderators-c83ea2f2c7f3 https://medium.com/openbazaarproject/verified-moderators-c83... Here's a post detailing what I was taking about. Unfortunately OB's interface for these things are awful and I'm not invested in its platform.
  - joosters 6y ago
    That was the point I was making: the idea of an 'impartial third party' on an anonymous blockchain is a pathetic joke. OpenBazaar's half-assed solution is to: 1) Moderate the moderators: Great, now we have two problems. 2) Try to tie moderators to a real-world ID: Realising they have to roll back the purported 'features' of crypto-currency (anonymous, peer-to-peer, unrestricted, etc), in order to try to get somewhere close to normal, real-world, commercial transactions.
yellow_postit 6y ago
This seems to get us right back to the current system however just “on a blockchain”

TylerE 6y ago

I agree that’s it’s incredibly worse than what we have now. No fraud protection is a complete consumer non-starter.

lucb1e 6y ago
> is a complete consumer non-starter Seems to work fine in the Netherlands. If you pay through the most common platform (iDeal.nl) or do an ordinary wire/SEPA transfer, the bank can't simply do a chargeback. The money is gone, but consumers are not generally afraid to buy things online using these methods. I'm not saying that "chargebacks fundamentally impossible" is a good thing. All I'm saying is that it seems to work in my country despite such a system, so it may (I don't know, just mentioning it as a data point / an option) be an acceptable trade-off because I hear from Factorio and others that credit card fraud and chargebacks are a real problem.
- TylerE 6y ago
  Those transactions are instant and practically free. Crypto is neither.