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>Transferring actual value quickly and cheaply without a third party, in much the same way we currently transfer data like emails or photos, Do we actually do

by ve55 6y ago

>Transferring actual value quickly and cheaply without a third party, in much the same way we currently transfer data like emails or photos, Do we actually do this that often, though? Email and photo sharing are generally dependent upon third parties, and generally extremely centralized and powerful ones, such as Google or Facebook or Twitter. Very little Internet communication goes directly from one person to another.

vngzs 6y ago
I think AirDrop works without a third party, but email passes through numerous hops - often in plaintext on the open Internet - before arriving at an inbox. Maybe encrypted messaging like Signal is a better analogy. Yeah, it still passes through a third party, but they can't read it.
- ve55 6y ago
  That's a good example, it's important not to be too pedantic with the definition since everything passes through middleboxes, or at least WiFi/routers or switches. Even so, it seems like the apps that are the most centralized often have the most communication volume, and things like Signal and AirDrop, as nice as they may be, are largely outliers. This is especially the case when we look at group communication, where many participants are involved (Reddit, Twitter, Slack, Discord, etc). I find it very hard to have private group conversations on the Internet due to these platforms, as almost every community is stuck on a completely centralized+proprietary solution by now.
xkjkls 6y ago
And do we not want a third party? Honestly, I like the security of knowing that most of my transactions are reversible within the context of the legal system.
- chrisco255 6y ago
  You don't have to do 100% of your finance on blockchain. I like the freedom of knowing that my funds cannot be controlled by any third party entity, who may object to my spending on the basis of some arbitrary criteria. We've seen people shut out of PayPal for very arbitrary reasons. We've seen the marijuana industry in Colorado shut out of banking (https://www.acams.org/aml-white-paper-marijuana/ https://www.acams.org/aml-white-paper-marijuana/). If centralized entities can control your spending, they can control you. That's one of the core arguments for decentralized finance. As for transaction reversibility, I am sure that a payment insurance program will crop up in the not-too-distant future to alleve those fears.
  - xkjkls 6y ago
    > You don't have to do 100% of your finance on blockchain. I like the freedom of knowing that my funds cannot be controlled by any third party entity, who may object to my spending on the basis of some arbitrary criteria. We've seen people shut out of PayPal for very arbitrary reasons. We've seen the marijuana industry in Colorado shut out of banking (https://www.acams.org/aml-white-paper-marijuana/ https://www.acams.org/aml-white-paper-marijuana/). See, I see Crypto people mostly arguing that Crypto is going to take over a some huge percentage of transactions in order to justify some skyhigh valuation, and then when pushed back on whether it is actually superior for large percentages of transactions, they revert back to an argument that there are certain (normally politically motivated) transactions that its important for. Unfortunately I don't see a universe where you can justify any of the valuations or importance of Crypto if the main use is the much smaller set of transactions.
    - chrisco255 6y ago
      No, my argument is that it will eat the whole financial system over the next few decades. Buying ETH or BTC is like buying a share of HTTP. The value of the ecosystem is captured at the protocol layer. If crypto bulls are right, the market cap for Bitcoin and Ethereum will be in the trillions and a significant portion of the financial system from banking to insurance to derivatives to stock market trading will all be traded on these chains.
      - xkjkls 6y ago
        Why? What advantage does Crypto offer that the current financial system doesn’t. It feels to me to be inferior in the fact that transactions can’t be taken back, and don’t have a firm legal framework behind it; in terms of cost and latency, a third party is always going to be able to set up a cheaper to run system. What about current banking and finance makes crypto superior in any way?
nakedshorts 6y ago
> Email and photo sharing are generally dependent upon third parties, and generally extremely centralized and powerful ones, such as Google or Facebook or Twitter. I think even still, the fact that you could go p2p acts as a behavior regulator for these companies. Gmail wants to charge you a monthly fee? Jump ship to a free competitor or run your own mail server. It's the same way with crypto. If an exchange starts charging me for custody or ridiculous fees to transfer money I'll just download my own wallet and transfer the money myself.
0x8BADF00D 6y ago
Many people want it. It took over a week for my ACH transfer to be confirmed by my brokerage. There’s a reason why people pay for wire transfers.
- Analemma_ 6y ago
  ACH is only a thing in the United States with our garbage-fire banking system though. In most countries you can do person-to-person transfers instantly with almost no fees. This is a non-issue for most people and crypto is solving it poorly.
  - bravoetch 6y ago
    Crypto is solving for a different part of the problem. Middleman authorities like banks, governments, and payment providers are able to limit, freeze, hold, confiscate, reroute to law enforcement at their discretion. Crypto aims to remove the middleman. It's not trying to solve payments. It's solving for independence.
    - XorNot 6y ago
      Which is a niche use for which there is no consumer demand. This is not a problem the ordinary consumer faces. It's not a problem the extraordinary consumer faces. And it's actually hilariously bad for people with actual problems like this, because they need money that looks and spends like money and not like "I'm trying to hide something" money. Which loops back to the problem: why is anyone else going to buy in?
      - bravoetch 6y ago
        Many people in the world are without access to banking. Bitcoin is a possible solution for some of their problems. If you're unhappy about the state of the project, I can understand your conclusions. It's still being built out, it's not snapchat or some other anti-pattern app maze delivered by hungry VCs by a crack team of fresh grads with no moral development. This is a protocol for financial independence. And yeah, it's new money. Old money that spends like money is the problem.

by ve55 6y ago

vngzs 6y ago

I think AirDrop works without a third party, but email passes through numerous hops - often in plaintext on the open Internet - before arriving at an inbox. Maybe encrypted messaging like Signal is a better analogy. Yeah, it still passes through a third party, but they can't read it.

ve55 6y ago
That's a good example, it's important not to be too pedantic with the definition since everything passes through middleboxes, or at least WiFi/routers or switches. Even so, it seems like the apps that are the most centralized often have the most communication volume, and things like Signal and AirDrop, as nice as they may be, are largely outliers. This is especially the case when we look at group communication, where many participants are involved (Reddit, Twitter, Slack, Discord, etc). I find it very hard to have private group conversations on the Internet due to these platforms, as almost every community is stuck on a completely centralized+proprietary solution by now.

xkjkls 6y ago

And do we not want a third party? Honestly, I like the security of knowing that most of my transactions are reversible within the context of the legal system.

chrisco255 6y ago
You don't have to do 100% of your finance on blockchain. I like the freedom of knowing that my funds cannot be controlled by any third party entity, who may object to my spending on the basis of some arbitrary criteria. We've seen people shut out of PayPal for very arbitrary reasons. We've seen the marijuana industry in Colorado shut out of banking (https://www.acams.org/aml-white-paper-marijuana/ https://www.acams.org/aml-white-paper-marijuana/). If centralized entities can control your spending, they can control you. That's one of the core arguments for decentralized finance. As for transaction reversibility, I am sure that a payment insurance program will crop up in the not-too-distant future to alleve those fears.
- xkjkls 6y ago
  > You don't have to do 100% of your finance on blockchain. I like the freedom of knowing that my funds cannot be controlled by any third party entity, who may object to my spending on the basis of some arbitrary criteria. We've seen people shut out of PayPal for very arbitrary reasons. We've seen the marijuana industry in Colorado shut out of banking (https://www.acams.org/aml-white-paper-marijuana/ https://www.acams.org/aml-white-paper-marijuana/). See, I see Crypto people mostly arguing that Crypto is going to take over a some huge percentage of transactions in order to justify some skyhigh valuation, and then when pushed back on whether it is actually superior for large percentages of transactions, they revert back to an argument that there are certain (normally politically motivated) transactions that its important for. Unfortunately I don't see a universe where you can justify any of the valuations or importance of Crypto if the main use is the much smaller set of transactions.
  - chrisco255 6y ago
    No, my argument is that it will eat the whole financial system over the next few decades. Buying ETH or BTC is like buying a share of HTTP. The value of the ecosystem is captured at the protocol layer. If crypto bulls are right, the market cap for Bitcoin and Ethereum will be in the trillions and a significant portion of the financial system from banking to insurance to derivatives to stock market trading will all be traded on these chains.
    - xkjkls 6y ago
      Why? What advantage does Crypto offer that the current financial system doesn’t. It feels to me to be inferior in the fact that transactions can’t be taken back, and don’t have a firm legal framework behind it; in terms of cost and latency, a third party is always going to be able to set up a cheaper to run system. What about current banking and finance makes crypto superior in any way?

nakedshorts 6y ago

> Email and photo sharing are generally dependent upon third parties, and generally extremely centralized and powerful ones, such as Google or Facebook or Twitter. I think even still, the fact that you could go p2p acts as a behavior regulator for these companies. Gmail wants to charge you a monthly fee? Jump ship to a free competitor or run your own mail server. It's the same way with crypto. If an exchange starts charging me for custody or ridiculous fees to transfer money I'll just download my own wallet and transfer the money myself.

0x8BADF00D 6y ago

Many people want it. It took over a week for my ACH transfer to be confirmed by my brokerage. There’s a reason why people pay for wire transfers.

Analemma_ 6y ago
ACH is only a thing in the United States with our garbage-fire banking system though. In most countries you can do person-to-person transfers instantly with almost no fees. This is a non-issue for most people and crypto is solving it poorly.
- bravoetch 6y ago
  Crypto is solving for a different part of the problem. Middleman authorities like banks, governments, and payment providers are able to limit, freeze, hold, confiscate, reroute to law enforcement at their discretion. Crypto aims to remove the middleman. It's not trying to solve payments. It's solving for independence.
  - XorNot 6y ago
    Which is a niche use for which there is no consumer demand. This is not a problem the ordinary consumer faces. It's not a problem the extraordinary consumer faces. And it's actually hilariously bad for people with actual problems like this, because they need money that looks and spends like money and not like "I'm trying to hide something" money. Which loops back to the problem: why is anyone else going to buy in?
    - bravoetch 6y ago
      Many people in the world are without access to banking. Bitcoin is a possible solution for some of their problems. If you're unhappy about the state of the project, I can understand your conclusions. It's still being built out, it's not snapchat or some other anti-pattern app maze delivered by hungry VCs by a crack team of fresh grads with no moral development. This is a protocol for financial independence. And yeah, it's new money. Old money that spends like money is the problem.