7 ms·

exactly! if you're taking home the same salary whether you're creating massive value for the company, why bother?

by jamespollack 6y ago

dang 6y ago
Self-respect?
- cambalache 6y ago
  If you tie your self-respect on how useful are you to the company that pays you, you are fucked. For them you are just a number.
  - discreteevent 6y ago
    So is every professional you pay money to. But you will still recommend some and not others. When times get tight, those guys still make a living.
    - cambalache 6y ago
      If you are an independent service worker yeah, I understand, go the extra mile with your customers, it is good for business. But if you are drone #139098123 in generic corporation X, you should not give a fuck on your reputation as long as you are doing your work. If they dump you, you go and get another job, there is a big world out there.
      - sixstringtheory 6y ago
        > you should not give a fuck on your reputation as long as you are doing your work But we're talking about reputation based on the quality/quantity of work you do. I think there's a difference between taking pride in your work, and breaking your back for your employer. I think the former is what's being advocated for in this thread. Also, if you feel like you're drone #139098123 in a soul sucking abyss, and can't be bothered to be interested in the activity you spend a majority of your waking hours supposedly doing in this short life, then I encourage you to look for something better. I know all too well that it's easier said than done, but it's better to start while you still have the soul sucking job instead of after they "dump you."
        cambalache 6y ago
        No, the original chain was about the choice of being full-gas all the time for your employer or pace yourself.
        sixstringtheory 6y ago
        Let me sum up how I saw it go... -you can get more done if you avoid addictive black holes for attention --if they don't want you playing around they should pay you more than the salary you agreed to work for ---yup, still getting paid the same. company is getting theirs, go get yours (I think this reply was actually sarcastic) ----how do you live with yourself -----if you have integrity you're dumb ------most people actually work for money, you'll probably get found out eventually otherwise -------you won't get found out if you embed yourself in a big enough company where you can hide, rinse and repeat It sounds less like an argument to pace one's self, and more like cynical entitlement.
        cambalache 6y ago
        If you think checking reddit or HN at work is a cardinal sin, be my guest and run yourself to the ground doing 80 hours a week with no respite, ignoring that many many studies place peak cognitive performance at 4 hours a day at best,be a "10x" engineer and get promoted.Unless you are laid off, but that rarely happens so dont worry.
        sixstringtheory 6y ago
        You're still pushing this false dichotomy that you can either surf social media or beat yourself to death. You're arguing against a straw man.
        cambalache 6y ago
        Yes! The one you created. If you're already working 4-5hours a day (as in actual working) you are giving all to the company. If you answer silly mails or check Reddit or whatever the other 3 hours is actually not a big deal and not a big dip into your productivity. Not a black hole by any means. If you think otherwise you are not only being "dumb" (compared to the "street-smart company"), you are being an economical irrational agent, so you will naturally be taken advantage of and get worst (not better) returns (not only money, things, like health, free time, meeting a SO, raising a family) in the long term. The fact that you willfully go to that extreme only shows how toxic is the Calvinistic worldview implanted in many people in the anglo western world and how companies ruthlessly exploit it.
  - dang 6y ago
    Of course, but it could be the other way around: doing your best work as a consequence of self-respect, not the cause.
    - jamespollack 6y ago
      What are you on about? Here's the post I replied to below, it said nothing about self-respect. You're the one who brought that up and still haven't explained how compensation factors into your "best work" / "self-respect" chain. Please, do share. ------------- > Congratulations, you are now 3-10x developer. Congratulations. You are still getting paid the same. Boosts in productivity need to come with boosts in pay, otherwise the logical thing to do is to scale back your effort to a point where the amount you get done matches the amount you get paid for. ------------ To which I said, "exactly! if you're taking home the same salary whether you're creating massive value for the company, why bother?" --------------------- So, if someone generates 10x more value than the person next to them, you think they should both be paid the same (while the company reaps the immense profits) and that nobody should complain about the situation because of their "self-respect"? Wild.
      - dang 6y ago
        I was replying to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23034090 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23034090, which was a comment by someone else. On HN, please omit rude swipes like "What are you on about?", "Please, do share," and "So if someone X, you think they should Y, and nobody should complain because 'Z'? Wild." Even if you're talking to a mod, you still need to follow the rules. I also need to, and you and anyone else are welcome to point it out when I slip. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        jamespollack 6y ago
        that's not what happened. if you click the link you included, your "self-respect?" comment isn't on that thread at all. because it was a reply to my comment. you're intentionally misrepresenting what happened. let me point out how you "slipped" and took a "rude swipe" - you don't play by your own rules. i made a post, you replied to me just saying "self-respect?" implying that i had none. how can you just drop insulting comments like that on people who are just participating in conversation? two words, no explanation, just plain rude. Isn't your "self-respect?" comment in bad-faith, given your own rules? "Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something." "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." "Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." From the New Yorker profile of you: "They treat their community like an encounter group or Esalen workshop; often, they correspond with individual Hacker News readers over e-mail, coaching and encouraging them in long, heartfelt exchanges." Is that just BS? What was encouraging or heartfelt about your response to me?
  - dwaltrip 6y ago
    Shockingly, some people feel good when they do great work and have a positive impact. Often times it even results in other beneficial outcomes in their life.
- jamespollack 6y ago
  From an HN admin this is pretty off-putting. If I work for a company and I'm earning them millions of dollars, you're saying that I don't deserve to be compensated proportionally, I should just give them my time and effort because of "self-respect"? This explains why you always silence my replies on the Who's Hiring posts. If you truly think that people should work for 'self-respect', no wonder you hate it when I ask that companies post about their hiring requirements: length of process, type of interviews, projects and whether they're paid, etc. Obviously you think we should all do those things for free because of our "self-respect". You must be rich AF already to have that kind of attitude.
  - jamespollack 6y ago
    edit: he did not delete my comment, it was below the fold. sorry. my question is still the same though. yup, dang already deleted my comment on Who's Hiring. what's your issue with engineers being able to compare processes between companies?
    - dang 6y ago
      I did not delete your comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23045720 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23045720). I'll try to come back and reply to your posts in this thread later.
      - jamespollack 6y ago
        that's on me, looks like it was below the fold and is still there for now. but you're likely about to send it to the bottom for being off-topic, like you did last month. i've posted the same thing for 3 or so months in a row and there haven't been any changes. it's not even like you have to do anything other than say, "Please include some of this info".
        dang 6y ago
        That's part of the problem. It's not ok to keep repeating the same comment on HN. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20copy%20paste%20signal%20noise&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... My issue is not "with engineers being able to compare processes between companies", it's with you (or any user) hijacking the job board with meta opinions about how the job board should be organized. Meta discussion all too easily takes over a thread and is particularly off topic in Who Is Hiring, which is a specialized context and not the usual open discussion. There's plenty of opportunity for freewheeling discussion elsewhere on the site. Lots of people have strong opinions about how the hiring threads should work, because people have strong feelings about hiring in general. The job board itself is not a good place to argue about those; it's off topic, adds noise and makes it less useful for its purpose. If one user is allowed to do it, many others will certainly follow, so this isn't just about one comment. I explained to you last month under what circumstances we'd consider making the kind of changes you're asking for; I also explained why that sort of meta comment is off topic and not allowed in the thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22755576 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22755576). To show up the next month and do the same thing again starts to not be cool; please don't do that any more.
- Gibbon1 6y ago
  Respect is a two way street.
  - cutemonster 6y ago
    I'd think in Dang's case he makes ok much money, and likes the company and coworkers

exactly! if you're taking home the same salary whether you're creating massive value for the company, why bother?

dang 6y ago

Self-respect?

cambalache 6y ago
If you tie your self-respect on how useful are you to the company that pays you, you are fucked. For them you are just a number.
- discreteevent 6y ago
  So is every professional you pay money to. But you will still recommend some and not others. When times get tight, those guys still make a living.
  - cambalache 6y ago
    If you are an independent service worker yeah, I understand, go the extra mile with your customers, it is good for business. But if you are drone #139098123 in generic corporation X, you should not give a fuck on your reputation as long as you are doing your work. If they dump you, you go and get another job, there is a big world out there.
    - sixstringtheory 6y ago
      > you should not give a fuck on your reputation as long as you are doing your work But we're talking about reputation based on the quality/quantity of work you do. I think there's a difference between taking pride in your work, and breaking your back for your employer. I think the former is what's being advocated for in this thread. Also, if you feel like you're drone #139098123 in a soul sucking abyss, and can't be bothered to be interested in the activity you spend a majority of your waking hours supposedly doing in this short life, then I encourage you to look for something better. I know all too well that it's easier said than done, but it's better to start while you still have the soul sucking job instead of after they "dump you."
      - cambalache 6y ago
        No, the original chain was about the choice of being full-gas all the time for your employer or pace yourself.
        sixstringtheory 6y ago
        Let me sum up how I saw it go... -you can get more done if you avoid addictive black holes for attention --if they don't want you playing around they should pay you more than the salary you agreed to work for ---yup, still getting paid the same. company is getting theirs, go get yours (I think this reply was actually sarcastic) ----how do you live with yourself -----if you have integrity you're dumb ------most people actually work for money, you'll probably get found out eventually otherwise -------you won't get found out if you embed yourself in a big enough company where you can hide, rinse and repeat It sounds less like an argument to pace one's self, and more like cynical entitlement.
        cambalache 6y ago
        If you think checking reddit or HN at work is a cardinal sin, be my guest and run yourself to the ground doing 80 hours a week with no respite, ignoring that many many studies place peak cognitive performance at 4 hours a day at best,be a "10x" engineer and get promoted.Unless you are laid off, but that rarely happens so dont worry.
        sixstringtheory 6y ago
        You're still pushing this false dichotomy that you can either surf social media or beat yourself to death. You're arguing against a straw man.
        cambalache 6y ago
        Yes! The one you created. If you're already working 4-5hours a day (as in actual working) you are giving all to the company. If you answer silly mails or check Reddit or whatever the other 3 hours is actually not a big deal and not a big dip into your productivity. Not a black hole by any means. If you think otherwise you are not only being "dumb" (compared to the "street-smart company"), you are being an economical irrational agent, so you will naturally be taken advantage of and get worst (not better) returns (not only money, things, like health, free time, meeting a SO, raising a family) in the long term. The fact that you willfully go to that extreme only shows how toxic is the Calvinistic worldview implanted in many people in the anglo western world and how companies ruthlessly exploit it.
- dang 6y ago
  Of course, but it could be the other way around: doing your best work as a consequence of self-respect, not the cause.
  - jamespollack 6y ago
    What are you on about? Here's the post I replied to below, it said nothing about self-respect. You're the one who brought that up and still haven't explained how compensation factors into your "best work" / "self-respect" chain. Please, do share. ------------- > Congratulations, you are now 3-10x developer. Congratulations. You are still getting paid the same. Boosts in productivity need to come with boosts in pay, otherwise the logical thing to do is to scale back your effort to a point where the amount you get done matches the amount you get paid for. ------------ To which I said, "exactly! if you're taking home the same salary whether you're creating massive value for the company, why bother?" --------------------- So, if someone generates 10x more value than the person next to them, you think they should both be paid the same (while the company reaps the immense profits) and that nobody should complain about the situation because of their "self-respect"? Wild.
    - dang 6y ago
      I was replying to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23034090 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23034090, which was a comment by someone else. On HN, please omit rude swipes like "What are you on about?", "Please, do share," and "So if someone X, you think they should Y, and nobody should complain because 'Z'? Wild." Even if you're talking to a mod, you still need to follow the rules. I also need to, and you and anyone else are welcome to point it out when I slip. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - jamespollack 6y ago
        that's not what happened. if you click the link you included, your "self-respect?" comment isn't on that thread at all. because it was a reply to my comment. you're intentionally misrepresenting what happened. let me point out how you "slipped" and took a "rude swipe" - you don't play by your own rules. i made a post, you replied to me just saying "self-respect?" implying that i had none. how can you just drop insulting comments like that on people who are just participating in conversation? two words, no explanation, just plain rude. Isn't your "self-respect?" comment in bad-faith, given your own rules? "Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something." "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." "Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." From the New Yorker profile of you: "They treat their community like an encounter group or Esalen workshop; often, they correspond with individual Hacker News readers over e-mail, coaching and encouraging them in long, heartfelt exchanges." Is that just BS? What was encouraging or heartfelt about your response to me?
- dwaltrip 6y ago
  Shockingly, some people feel good when they do great work and have a positive impact. Often times it even results in other beneficial outcomes in their life.
jamespollack 6y ago
From an HN admin this is pretty off-putting. If I work for a company and I'm earning them millions of dollars, you're saying that I don't deserve to be compensated proportionally, I should just give them my time and effort because of "self-respect"? This explains why you always silence my replies on the Who's Hiring posts. If you truly think that people should work for 'self-respect', no wonder you hate it when I ask that companies post about their hiring requirements: length of process, type of interviews, projects and whether they're paid, etc. Obviously you think we should all do those things for free because of our "self-respect". You must be rich AF already to have that kind of attitude.
- jamespollack 6y ago
  edit: he did not delete my comment, it was below the fold. sorry. my question is still the same though. yup, dang already deleted my comment on Who's Hiring. what's your issue with engineers being able to compare processes between companies?
  - dang 6y ago
    I did not delete your comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23045720 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23045720). I'll try to come back and reply to your posts in this thread later.
    - jamespollack 6y ago
      that's on me, looks like it was below the fold and is still there for now. but you're likely about to send it to the bottom for being off-topic, like you did last month. i've posted the same thing for 3 or so months in a row and there haven't been any changes. it's not even like you have to do anything other than say, "Please include some of this info".
      - dang 6y ago
        That's part of the problem. It's not ok to keep repeating the same comment on HN. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20copy%20paste%20signal%20noise&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... My issue is not "with engineers being able to compare processes between companies", it's with you (or any user) hijacking the job board with meta opinions about how the job board should be organized. Meta discussion all too easily takes over a thread and is particularly off topic in Who Is Hiring, which is a specialized context and not the usual open discussion. There's plenty of opportunity for freewheeling discussion elsewhere on the site. Lots of people have strong opinions about how the hiring threads should work, because people have strong feelings about hiring in general. The job board itself is not a good place to argue about those; it's off topic, adds noise and makes it less useful for its purpose. If one user is allowed to do it, many others will certainly follow, so this isn't just about one comment. I explained to you last month under what circumstances we'd consider making the kind of changes you're asking for; I also explained why that sort of meta comment is off topic and not allowed in the thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22755576 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22755576). To show up the next month and do the same thing again starts to not be cool; please don't do that any more.
Gibbon1 6y ago
Respect is a two way street.
- cutemonster 6y ago
  I'd think in Dang's case he makes ok much money, and likes the company and coworkers