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Reading this thread makes me realize it's a "normie tax". Normal people don't know how to troubleshoot network problems and require a lot of technical support

Reading this thread makes me realize it's a "normie tax". Normal people don't know how to troubleshoot network problems and require a lot of technical support (read: $$). So "rent" them a cheap router - not because they need to pay for a router - but because it's a proxy for increased technical support. It's genius because technical people will opt out of the router but also not require as much tech support. It's a way to internalize the otherwise external cost of tech support. Change my mind. :)

syshum 7y ago
My ISP (frontier) refuses to do any support unless their router is connected, I have had issues in the past where I know 100% that it is the ONT that is the issue, yet I have to connect their router to it before they will do anything or send anyone to look at the issue The second they find out I am not using their hardware the call ends sadly even with the extra fee, I am still paying about 30% less for Symmetric fiber than I would for a similar asymmetric connection from Comcast which is the only other provider for me
technofiend 7y ago
It's also a tax on people who know better but still value their time more than the satisfaction of using self-owned equipment. I have a self-owned Docsis 3.0 cable modem now. The only reason I haven't paid out of pocket to upgrade is that modems with 2.5Gb NICs are imminent, but in the back of my mind is also the thought any issues I find will instantly be blamed on customer equipment. I may just meet Comcast in the middle: rent a 2.5 Gb modem long enough to get it working then swap to self-owned. That shuts down any it must be your cable or equipment arguments and lets me progress to are you sure you've provisioned this thing properly?
- geocrasher 7y ago
  > It's also a tax on people who know better but still value their time more than the satisfaction of using self-owned equipment. Yes. This exactly, and that's what I was trying to get at in my comment above.
  - soylentcola 7y ago
    For me, it just isn't about self-satisfaction. It's just not that time-consuming to buy my own modem and router, spend a few minutes setting up the router with my preferred settings, and getting on with life. 99% of the time, if I have an issue, I just do a power cycle (same as I would do with something I was renting) and the problem is solved. In the 1% of times that it's something else, at least I have the option to look into it and possibly solve it. With a rented Comcast modem/router combo I haven't a clue what I'd be able to accomplish other than driving it back to the service center and swapping for another one. The modem and router I'm currently using are both several years old and have required minimal tinkering. Most of that was limited to the 10-15 min of initial setup and maybe a few minutes here and there over the years forwarding a port or something.
  - Skunkleton 7y ago
    I value my time. For that reason I bought all of my own equipment. I've had the same modem, router, switch, and AP running with only minor issues for about five years now. When something does go wrong, I can pinpoint the issue in significantly less time then I would be on hold with comcast, and when the issue is on comcast's end I can just report an outage and move on. It doesn't hurt that in those five years I have saved...well zero dollars because I spent too much money on my equipment. I am starting to see savings though, and am happy about that.
paulcole 7y ago
I happily pay $150 a year to rent my router. I want nothing less than to ever think about a router. Something goes wrong the cable company deals with it. I configure nothing, I troubleshoot nothing. I love it and it's a bargain.
- Skunkleton 7y ago
  This sounds nice, but isn't a reality in my experience. The equipment that major ISPs give out is usually of pretty poor quality. When it does fail, you end up on the phone with support, or driving to a service center, or taking off time to meet a tech. For me that is a much larger time suck than the ~hour I spent setting up my own equipment.
  - rurp 7y ago
    My experience aligns much more with yours than the GP; it sounds like they have a much better provider than most. In my experience, ISPs use the cheapest hardware they can get and still blame the customer or give them the run around when there is an issue. Buying my own high quality modem+router has definitely saved time over the handful of times I was using a rented one.
  - paulcole 7y ago
    Interestingly, my situation has been the reality in my experience.
    - Skunkleton 7y ago
      Which ISP are you using out of curiosity? Not that I have an option other than comcast.
      - paulcole 7y ago
        Comcast!
        7y ago
grecy 7y ago
> Reading this thread makes me realize it's a "normie tax". If you want to look at it that way, sure. Also you paying to have your vehicle or bike serviced is a "tax for people that don't know better". So is paying to have plumbing and electrical done in your house, so is getting your back adjusted, so is virtually everything you pay someone else to do. We all have our expertise, and just because we happen to be good with routers, doesn't mean we should look down on people that aren't, because chances are they've got skills far above you in some other area.
- namibj 7y ago
  Actually, I'd do the electrical myself, but I'm not allowed to, because I'm not certified. I just need a more redundant breaker configuration. A few days ago some overboiling pot shorted out wiring in the stove (portable/plug-in 2-plate resistive), tripping the GFCI that cut power to a server on a different phase. I know what's be needed, but if anything happens, I'd be (presumed?) liable.

syshum 7y ago

My ISP (frontier) refuses to do any support unless their router is connected, I have had issues in the past where I know 100% that it is the ONT that is the issue, yet I have to connect their router to it before they will do anything or send anyone to look at the issue The second they find out I am not using their hardware the call ends sadly even with the extra fee, I am still paying about 30% less for Symmetric fiber than I would for a similar asymmetric connection from Comcast which is the only other provider for me

technofiend 7y ago

It's also a tax on people who know better but still value their time more than the satisfaction of using self-owned equipment. I have a self-owned Docsis 3.0 cable modem now. The only reason I haven't paid out of pocket to upgrade is that modems with 2.5Gb NICs are imminent, but in the back of my mind is also the thought any issues I find will instantly be blamed on customer equipment. I may just meet Comcast in the middle: rent a 2.5 Gb modem long enough to get it working then swap to self-owned. That shuts down any it must be your cable or equipment arguments and lets me progress to are you sure you've provisioned this thing properly?

geocrasher 7y ago
> It's also a tax on people who know better but still value their time more than the satisfaction of using self-owned equipment. Yes. This exactly, and that's what I was trying to get at in my comment above.
- soylentcola 7y ago
  For me, it just isn't about self-satisfaction. It's just not that time-consuming to buy my own modem and router, spend a few minutes setting up the router with my preferred settings, and getting on with life. 99% of the time, if I have an issue, I just do a power cycle (same as I would do with something I was renting) and the problem is solved. In the 1% of times that it's something else, at least I have the option to look into it and possibly solve it. With a rented Comcast modem/router combo I haven't a clue what I'd be able to accomplish other than driving it back to the service center and swapping for another one. The modem and router I'm currently using are both several years old and have required minimal tinkering. Most of that was limited to the 10-15 min of initial setup and maybe a few minutes here and there over the years forwarding a port or something.
- Skunkleton 7y ago
  I value my time. For that reason I bought all of my own equipment. I've had the same modem, router, switch, and AP running with only minor issues for about five years now. When something does go wrong, I can pinpoint the issue in significantly less time then I would be on hold with comcast, and when the issue is on comcast's end I can just report an outage and move on. It doesn't hurt that in those five years I have saved...well zero dollars because I spent too much money on my equipment. I am starting to see savings though, and am happy about that.

paulcole 7y ago

I happily pay $150 a year to rent my router. I want nothing less than to ever think about a router. Something goes wrong the cable company deals with it. I configure nothing, I troubleshoot nothing. I love it and it's a bargain.

Skunkleton 7y ago
This sounds nice, but isn't a reality in my experience. The equipment that major ISPs give out is usually of pretty poor quality. When it does fail, you end up on the phone with support, or driving to a service center, or taking off time to meet a tech. For me that is a much larger time suck than the ~hour I spent setting up my own equipment.
- rurp 7y ago
  My experience aligns much more with yours than the GP; it sounds like they have a much better provider than most. In my experience, ISPs use the cheapest hardware they can get and still blame the customer or give them the run around when there is an issue. Buying my own high quality modem+router has definitely saved time over the handful of times I was using a rented one.
- paulcole 7y ago
  Interestingly, my situation has been the reality in my experience.
  - Skunkleton 7y ago
    Which ISP are you using out of curiosity? Not that I have an option other than comcast.
    - paulcole 7y ago
      Comcast!
      - 7y ago

grecy 7y ago

> Reading this thread makes me realize it's a "normie tax". If you want to look at it that way, sure. Also you paying to have your vehicle or bike serviced is a "tax for people that don't know better". So is paying to have plumbing and electrical done in your house, so is getting your back adjusted, so is virtually everything you pay someone else to do. We all have our expertise, and just because we happen to be good with routers, doesn't mean we should look down on people that aren't, because chances are they've got skills far above you in some other area.

namibj 7y ago
Actually, I'd do the electrical myself, but I'm not allowed to, because I'm not certified. I just need a more redundant breaker configuration. A few days ago some overboiling pot shorted out wiring in the stove (portable/plug-in 2-plate resistive), tripping the GFCI that cut power to a server on a different phase. I know what's be needed, but if anything happens, I'd be (presumed?) liable.