7 ms·

The real draw under turbo is likely much higher. My i9-9900k for instance has a rated TDP of 95W but it can only boost to about 4.5Ghz all-core when limited to

by jpgvm 7y ago

The real draw under turbo is likely much higher. My i9-9900k for instance has a rated TDP of 95W but it can only boost to about 4.5Ghz all-core when limited to that TDP. I run it at a 5.2ghz all-core overlock and it pulls nearly 200W under load. (yes, beefy watercooling). From memory it was around 150W @ 5ghz but I haven't played around with the OC settings for a while after I got it tuned right.

wuunderbar 7y ago
What's your watercooling setup? Not AIO I presume?
winter_blue 7y ago
What sort of water cooling setup do you have? From all that I've read, the typical AIO water cooling setup is only barely better than a high-end air/fan cooling setup.
- xxs 7y ago
  That would depend on the power dissipated. Custom loop can have higher flow rate, (significantly) more surface area of the radiators, and more water. Another issue is that VRM needs cooling too, and custom loops can come VRM cooling (monoblocks). AIOs would need forced airflow (fan).
  - tracker1 7y ago
    There is a lot of variety... Most 360 AIO will do much better than any air cooler with less noise. Many 240-280 will as well... Good/Great air coolers will often do as well as a 120-240mm aio. This will vary by radiator size/thickness, the fans and the case airflow and any obstructions. Personally, O11 dynamic, with a 360 aio at the top/exhaust and 3x side, 3x bottom intake... It's really quite pretty much all the time... If I stick my head close, I can hear a little hum, but that my well be the video card for all I can tell. The 4-bay nas on the shelf nearby is more noticeable.
    - xxs 7y ago
      About AIO - of course they tend to be more quiet than air coolers. The argument is about AIO vs custom loops and how similar they are.
- ezconnect 7y ago
  They are comparable on cooling capability except for noise levels when the CPU is overclocked. I have a big air cooler and it gets really noisy when CPU is loaded.
  - Skunkleton 7y ago
    A downside to watercooling in general is that it has a higher thermal capacity relative to a fan and heatsink. This means that a watercooled CPU will stay hotter for longer after it is no longer under load, relative to a heatsink setup. IMO an AIO is a notch down in cooling performance relative to a large heatsink. I still went AIO for noise reasons though.
    - ac29 7y ago
      Isnt the reverse also true, that it will stay cooler longer when ramping up load due to the higher thermal mass of the cooling system?
      - coribuci 7y ago
        No.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - nomel 7y ago
        Yes, it’s not much different than a bowl of water being heated from one side and cooled by a heat sink with a fan on it on the other. It takes time to move the temperature of that water around with some fixed heat source/sink. Gamers Nexus has some standardized measurements for “time to max”: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h10MU3Jebx0&t=751 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h10MU3Jebx0&t=751
        davrosthedalek 7y ago
        That's not quite the right explanation. With the pump in the loop, the heat transfer speed is actually quite high, and ideally the temperature difference between "after CPU" and "after radiator" is small. Without the pump (ie. "bowl"), the temp difference would be quite big until convection kicks in. However, cooling on any radiator is a function of the temperature difference between air and metal. The heat from the CPU will slowly heat up the water and radiator, which has actually a large heat capacity. That takes times, so the temperatures go up slower. When the heater stops, it will take the radiator also comparatively long to get that heat out of the water again. A normal air cooler has much smaller heat capacity, so will react much faster, in both directions. These faster cycles are certainly less good for the CPU than the slower cycles of a water loop.
- sandworm101 7y ago
  >>...barely better than a high-end air/fan cooling setup. A large air cooler will be as effective, possibly more effective, than an AIO water cooler. What matters is radiator surface air x airflow. AOIs tend to have small surface area radiators and quiet fans because that is their target market. Water cooling does have some advanteages, but for coninuous heavy loads all that really matters is radiator capacity. The large air-cooled radiator is going to have more veins with more surface area covered by a more powerful fan than the typical AOI radiator.
  - LeifCarrotson 7y ago
    > AOIs tend to have small surface area radiators and quiet fans because that is their target market. What target market? I know there are some that just have one square 120mm radiator, but I guess I naively assumed that given the fact that they offer 1x, 2x, and 3x length radiators that the average size of a water cooler was somewhere in the middle. I've always understood that the basic advantage of a water cooler is that it lets you move the air-heat interface to a remote object instead of requiring it to be suspended horizontally from the motherboard. Given you get to shove it on the top or front of your case, why wouldn't people choose as big a radiator as possible? What do you think the average water cooler size is?
    - eropple 7y ago
      My guess is that the average AIO water cooler is something like a Corsair H60. The places where you're going to really leverage a water cooler are small and cramped cases where you otherwise can't get good airflow off of the CPU, and those tend to be smaller cases. (The H60 isn't that much cooler than a Noctua UH-12, either.)
      - sq_ 7y ago
        I'd actually be really interested to see statistics from Corsair, NZXT, Cooler Master, or another big AIO OEM about what they sell the most of. My perspective from participating in PC building communities and consuming content from the big hardware sites and channels is that most people who use an AIO go for either a 240mm or 280mm radiator. I can't remember the last time I saw a 120mm or 140mm radiator recommended for a non small form factor build, as they usually perform equal to or worse than much cheaper air coolers.
- BubRoss 7y ago
  If you press your hand to the bottom of a heat sink and warm it up, then turn the water pump on, it feels like water just washed over your hand, the metal cools down as soon as the water passes over it. Some people seem to think air can be better because at idle, heat pipes can end up a few degrees cooler. Ultimately what you want though is heat dissapation, ideally without super powerful fans and water cooling is far better.
  - jki275 7y ago
    That ignores the fact that heat has to be radiated somewhere, otherwise the water just heats up. You're only moving the problem, not eliminating it.
    - jzoch 7y ago
      thats how cooling works...energy can neither be created nor destroyed
    - abakker 7y ago
      If you move the heat away from a small area quickly, you can easily spread the heat out into a MUCH bigger radiator which will cool more efficiently with air. A nice water cooling loop effectively increases the radiating surface area, with a nice side effect that it moves the heat further away from the rest of the computer.
    - BubRoss 7y ago
      It doesn't ignore that at all, the whole point is to move the heat from the tiny CPU to a big radiator with a lot of surface area. Air is a terrible conductor of heat compared to water, which pales in comparison to metal, but even metal doesn't move heat as well as flowing water.
- EricE 7y ago
  Gamers Nexus is an excellent Youtube channel and they have heavily invested in testing equipment to meaningfully evaluate coolers - some of their initial findings are already interesting. If you really are interested in cooling solutions I’d give their channel a visit. The closest thing I have found to filling the void when Kyle had the gall to shut down HardOCP :/
lostmsu 7y ago
That sounds to be by design, and matches my expectations at least: they claim all-core turbo 3.6 base freq + 1.1 turbo. When you overclock, no wonder you get more power draw than the official spec says.
- arcticbull 7y ago
  But... the overclocking is the official spec. It happens dynamically all the time, it’s not a knob you throw. If TDP is too facile, another more reflective metric may be needed, but for now it’s clear TDP for Intel is marketing not grounded in reality — and not directly comparable between products in their lineup let alone across brands.
  - lostmsu 7y ago
    No, that's turbo boost.
    - arcticbull 7y ago
      Turbo boost is overclocking above the base rate for short periods of time.
      - lostmsu 7y ago
        I feel like one of us is missing the point. The complaint was that when being restricted to TDP power draw processor won't run above about 4.5GHz. Having overclocking mentioned after that as drawing more power made me think, that by overclocking they meant going beyond Turbo Boost, as 4.5GHz is approximately the all-core Turbo Boost frequency for the processor. If that is correct, then there is no surprise, that going beyond max boost requires drawing power beyond declared TDP.
        arcticbull 7y ago
        Ahh I see, sounds like we were talking past each-other a bit. I can totally see why you read it that way, maybe I'm the one who's off base.

by jpgvm 7y ago

wuunderbar 7y ago

What's your watercooling setup? Not AIO I presume?

winter_blue 7y ago

What sort of water cooling setup do you have? From all that I've read, the typical AIO water cooling setup is only barely better than a high-end air/fan cooling setup.

xxs 7y ago
That would depend on the power dissipated. Custom loop can have higher flow rate, (significantly) more surface area of the radiators, and more water. Another issue is that VRM needs cooling too, and custom loops can come VRM cooling (monoblocks). AIOs would need forced airflow (fan).
- tracker1 7y ago
  There is a lot of variety... Most 360 AIO will do much better than any air cooler with less noise. Many 240-280 will as well... Good/Great air coolers will often do as well as a 120-240mm aio. This will vary by radiator size/thickness, the fans and the case airflow and any obstructions. Personally, O11 dynamic, with a 360 aio at the top/exhaust and 3x side, 3x bottom intake... It's really quite pretty much all the time... If I stick my head close, I can hear a little hum, but that my well be the video card for all I can tell. The 4-bay nas on the shelf nearby is more noticeable.
  - xxs 7y ago
    About AIO - of course they tend to be more quiet than air coolers. The argument is about AIO vs custom loops and how similar they are.
ezconnect 7y ago
They are comparable on cooling capability except for noise levels when the CPU is overclocked. I have a big air cooler and it gets really noisy when CPU is loaded.
- Skunkleton 7y ago
  A downside to watercooling in general is that it has a higher thermal capacity relative to a fan and heatsink. This means that a watercooled CPU will stay hotter for longer after it is no longer under load, relative to a heatsink setup. IMO an AIO is a notch down in cooling performance relative to a large heatsink. I still went AIO for noise reasons though.
  - ac29 7y ago
    Isnt the reverse also true, that it will stay cooler longer when ramping up load due to the higher thermal mass of the cooling system?
    - coribuci 7y ago
      No.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - nomel 7y ago
      Yes, it’s not much different than a bowl of water being heated from one side and cooled by a heat sink with a fan on it on the other. It takes time to move the temperature of that water around with some fixed heat source/sink. Gamers Nexus has some standardized measurements for “time to max”: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h10MU3Jebx0&t=751 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h10MU3Jebx0&t=751
      - davrosthedalek 7y ago
        That's not quite the right explanation. With the pump in the loop, the heat transfer speed is actually quite high, and ideally the temperature difference between "after CPU" and "after radiator" is small. Without the pump (ie. "bowl"), the temp difference would be quite big until convection kicks in. However, cooling on any radiator is a function of the temperature difference between air and metal. The heat from the CPU will slowly heat up the water and radiator, which has actually a large heat capacity. That takes times, so the temperatures go up slower. When the heater stops, it will take the radiator also comparatively long to get that heat out of the water again. A normal air cooler has much smaller heat capacity, so will react much faster, in both directions. These faster cycles are certainly less good for the CPU than the slower cycles of a water loop.
sandworm101 7y ago
>>...barely better than a high-end air/fan cooling setup. A large air cooler will be as effective, possibly more effective, than an AIO water cooler. What matters is radiator surface air x airflow. AOIs tend to have small surface area radiators and quiet fans because that is their target market. Water cooling does have some advanteages, but for coninuous heavy loads all that really matters is radiator capacity. The large air-cooled radiator is going to have more veins with more surface area covered by a more powerful fan than the typical AOI radiator.
- LeifCarrotson 7y ago
  > AOIs tend to have small surface area radiators and quiet fans because that is their target market. What target market? I know there are some that just have one square 120mm radiator, but I guess I naively assumed that given the fact that they offer 1x, 2x, and 3x length radiators that the average size of a water cooler was somewhere in the middle. I've always understood that the basic advantage of a water cooler is that it lets you move the air-heat interface to a remote object instead of requiring it to be suspended horizontally from the motherboard. Given you get to shove it on the top or front of your case, why wouldn't people choose as big a radiator as possible? What do you think the average water cooler size is?
  - eropple 7y ago
    My guess is that the average AIO water cooler is something like a Corsair H60. The places where you're going to really leverage a water cooler are small and cramped cases where you otherwise can't get good airflow off of the CPU, and those tend to be smaller cases. (The H60 isn't that much cooler than a Noctua UH-12, either.)
    - sq_ 7y ago
      I'd actually be really interested to see statistics from Corsair, NZXT, Cooler Master, or another big AIO OEM about what they sell the most of. My perspective from participating in PC building communities and consuming content from the big hardware sites and channels is that most people who use an AIO go for either a 240mm or 280mm radiator. I can't remember the last time I saw a 120mm or 140mm radiator recommended for a non small form factor build, as they usually perform equal to or worse than much cheaper air coolers.
BubRoss 7y ago
If you press your hand to the bottom of a heat sink and warm it up, then turn the water pump on, it feels like water just washed over your hand, the metal cools down as soon as the water passes over it. Some people seem to think air can be better because at idle, heat pipes can end up a few degrees cooler. Ultimately what you want though is heat dissapation, ideally without super powerful fans and water cooling is far better.
- jki275 7y ago
  That ignores the fact that heat has to be radiated somewhere, otherwise the water just heats up. You're only moving the problem, not eliminating it.
  - jzoch 7y ago
    thats how cooling works...energy can neither be created nor destroyed
  - abakker 7y ago
    If you move the heat away from a small area quickly, you can easily spread the heat out into a MUCH bigger radiator which will cool more efficiently with air. A nice water cooling loop effectively increases the radiating surface area, with a nice side effect that it moves the heat further away from the rest of the computer.
  - BubRoss 7y ago
    It doesn't ignore that at all, the whole point is to move the heat from the tiny CPU to a big radiator with a lot of surface area. Air is a terrible conductor of heat compared to water, which pales in comparison to metal, but even metal doesn't move heat as well as flowing water.
EricE 7y ago
Gamers Nexus is an excellent Youtube channel and they have heavily invested in testing equipment to meaningfully evaluate coolers - some of their initial findings are already interesting. If you really are interested in cooling solutions I’d give their channel a visit. The closest thing I have found to filling the void when Kyle had the gall to shut down HardOCP :/

lostmsu 7y ago

That sounds to be by design, and matches my expectations at least: they claim all-core turbo 3.6 base freq + 1.1 turbo. When you overclock, no wonder you get more power draw than the official spec says.

arcticbull 7y ago
But... the overclocking is the official spec. It happens dynamically all the time, it’s not a knob you throw. If TDP is too facile, another more reflective metric may be needed, but for now it’s clear TDP for Intel is marketing not grounded in reality — and not directly comparable between products in their lineup let alone across brands.
- lostmsu 7y ago
  No, that's turbo boost.
  - arcticbull 7y ago
    Turbo boost is overclocking above the base rate for short periods of time.
    - lostmsu 7y ago
      I feel like one of us is missing the point. The complaint was that when being restricted to TDP power draw processor won't run above about 4.5GHz. Having overclocking mentioned after that as drawing more power made me think, that by overclocking they meant going beyond Turbo Boost, as 4.5GHz is approximately the all-core Turbo Boost frequency for the processor. If that is correct, then there is no surprise, that going beyond max boost requires drawing power beyond declared TDP.
      - arcticbull 7y ago
        Ahh I see, sounds like we were talking past each-other a bit. I can totally see why you read it that way, maybe I'm the one who's off base.