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I think it's time to decouple education from all of the other things tied to colleges. When I studied abroad in Australia, things like the gym or meal plans wer

I think it's time to decouple education from all of the other things tied to colleges. When I studied abroad in Australia, things like the gym or meal plans were available, but not "bundled in" to your tuition. The idea of tying competitive sports teams to a university would be laughable. We need to remove all of the "excess" stuff from higher education and get back to the core of education and research. Sure, things like football might be net profitable (for some schools), but lacrosse, baseball, swimming, gymnastics and all of that are not and students shouldn't be paying for that.

JoeAltmaier 6y ago
No, especially not football. At my college the football team is essentially a separate corporation. The college gets nothing from the arrangement. In fact they have to rent parking from the football folk. Fat deal were made to coaches over the years, until its all pork-barrel dealing and nothing left for the school. The students can't even go to games, the ticket prices are a semester's tuition.
- a9h74j 6y ago
  Pre-1990 I read this quote from a college president: "College administration boils down to sex for the students, football for the alumni, and parking for the faculty."
  - blululu 6y ago
    The great Clark Kerr: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clark_Kerr https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clark_Kerr
- daseiner1 6y ago
  Given the similarity of your description to my own alma mater, I can virtually guarantee that that football program is self-sufficient, and probably raises your university's profile. They couldn't charge that much for tickets otherwise. So I don't really see the harm.
draw_down 6y ago
This is not realistic, sadly. American universities are businesses, they have been turned into money-making enterprises, education is a concern but not really a primary one.
macinjosh 6y ago
This is essential. The state university my partner attended and worked at became, over the years, more similar to a theme park or all-inclusive resort than an educational institution. They were involved in everything from student banking, fast-food franchises, high-end gyms, suites instead of dorms, and on it went. Not saying these things have no place, just that it shouldn't be part of the university.
- Engineer2Throw 6y ago
  You don't need to use them. I never paid for any of these and I graduated debt free
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
EvanAnderson 6y ago
I've volunteered at a summer youth leadership camp held at a local state university since 1998. In the last 10 years the host university has undertaken massive construction of more "luxury appointed" dorms, recreational complexes, a huge basketball arena, and upscale dining halls. The justification was that it was necessary to do these things to compete with other colleges. I can't say that I've followed the cost of their tuition and fees, but given the amount of money spent on construction I can't imagine the curve is flat.
- MattGaiser 6y ago
  Students will actually pay for those things though and they are willing to pay a premium. My alma mater is concerned about having to run online classes next semester as they usually pay for many of the costs with the residence money...
  - EvanAnderson 6y ago
    I won't dispute that students will pay. I think it is predatory, though, on the part of the colleges. I'd argue students, by and large, don't have the maturity to make such consequential financial decisions (taking on loans representing multiple years of their future gross income that can't be discharged in bankruptcy). The average young person just hasn't had the duration of life experience to think on a 10+ year horizon. (Arguably a shortcoming of humanity in general.)
JackFr 6y ago
While we’re eliminating non-revenue sports teams can we also drop theater groups, singing groups and school newspapers.
MattGaiser 6y ago
There are schools without all those things. They are just not the ones students choose to attend.
- chadash 6y ago
  And that's the problem. Malcolm Gladwell has a great podcast about this focusing on Bowdoin college. Bowdoin (apparently) spends a lot of money on luxuries like great food for the dorms, etc. As a result, the rich kids who can afford it naturally prefer to go to Bowdoin. Now, the school becomes more prestigious because of the rich kids... it's a place to go to meet other rich kids, which builds valuable connections that ultimately help your career. Meanwhile, schools that prioritize financial aid over things like gyms and food go down in the rankings and become less desirable. Now, this is all fair game in my opinion. The schools are basically turning into country clubs of a sort and I think country clubs have a right to exist in America. BUT... I don't want to see them subsidized by the rest of us. If you are a school and you want to receive state/federal money directly or via student loans and you want to maintain your non-profit status... scale down the amenities. At the very least, I don't want tax breaks going to subsidize (mostly) rich kids' gyms.
kevindong 6y ago
I went to Purdue. At Purdue, athletics and student housing/dining are entirely separate divisions from the academic side of the university. Each of those divisions is required to be self supporting without needing aid from tuition dollars. That being said, a mandatory part of tuition is funding for the student gym. I think it came out to be something like $100/student/semester which I'd consider reasonable.
- chadash 6y ago
  Any individual cost looks justifiable. But they add up. And ultimately, students pay for many of them. With a gym, especially, you can make it optional and charge students who want it. That's the model in many other countries. Similarly, the school newspaper, political clubs, other student activities all get funded from somewhere.

JoeAltmaier 6y ago

No, especially not football. At my college the football team is essentially a separate corporation. The college gets nothing from the arrangement. In fact they have to rent parking from the football folk. Fat deal were made to coaches over the years, until its all pork-barrel dealing and nothing left for the school. The students can't even go to games, the ticket prices are a semester's tuition.

a9h74j 6y ago
Pre-1990 I read this quote from a college president: "College administration boils down to sex for the students, football for the alumni, and parking for the faculty."
- blululu 6y ago
  The great Clark Kerr: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clark_Kerr https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clark_Kerr
daseiner1 6y ago
Given the similarity of your description to my own alma mater, I can virtually guarantee that that football program is self-sufficient, and probably raises your university's profile. They couldn't charge that much for tickets otherwise. So I don't really see the harm.

draw_down 6y ago

This is not realistic, sadly. American universities are businesses, they have been turned into money-making enterprises, education is a concern but not really a primary one.

macinjosh 6y ago

This is essential. The state university my partner attended and worked at became, over the years, more similar to a theme park or all-inclusive resort than an educational institution. They were involved in everything from student banking, fast-food franchises, high-end gyms, suites instead of dorms, and on it went. Not saying these things have no place, just that it shouldn't be part of the university.

Engineer2Throw 6y ago
You don't need to use them. I never paid for any of these and I graduated debt free

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

EvanAnderson 6y ago

I've volunteered at a summer youth leadership camp held at a local state university since 1998. In the last 10 years the host university has undertaken massive construction of more "luxury appointed" dorms, recreational complexes, a huge basketball arena, and upscale dining halls. The justification was that it was necessary to do these things to compete with other colleges. I can't say that I've followed the cost of their tuition and fees, but given the amount of money spent on construction I can't imagine the curve is flat.

MattGaiser 6y ago
Students will actually pay for those things though and they are willing to pay a premium. My alma mater is concerned about having to run online classes next semester as they usually pay for many of the costs with the residence money...
- EvanAnderson 6y ago
  I won't dispute that students will pay. I think it is predatory, though, on the part of the colleges. I'd argue students, by and large, don't have the maturity to make such consequential financial decisions (taking on loans representing multiple years of their future gross income that can't be discharged in bankruptcy). The average young person just hasn't had the duration of life experience to think on a 10+ year horizon. (Arguably a shortcoming of humanity in general.)

JackFr 6y ago

While we’re eliminating non-revenue sports teams can we also drop theater groups, singing groups and school newspapers.

MattGaiser 6y ago

There are schools without all those things. They are just not the ones students choose to attend.

chadash 6y ago
And that's the problem. Malcolm Gladwell has a great podcast about this focusing on Bowdoin college. Bowdoin (apparently) spends a lot of money on luxuries like great food for the dorms, etc. As a result, the rich kids who can afford it naturally prefer to go to Bowdoin. Now, the school becomes more prestigious because of the rich kids... it's a place to go to meet other rich kids, which builds valuable connections that ultimately help your career. Meanwhile, schools that prioritize financial aid over things like gyms and food go down in the rankings and become less desirable. Now, this is all fair game in my opinion. The schools are basically turning into country clubs of a sort and I think country clubs have a right to exist in America. BUT... I don't want to see them subsidized by the rest of us. If you are a school and you want to receive state/federal money directly or via student loans and you want to maintain your non-profit status... scale down the amenities. At the very least, I don't want tax breaks going to subsidize (mostly) rich kids' gyms.

kevindong 6y ago

I went to Purdue. At Purdue, athletics and student housing/dining are entirely separate divisions from the academic side of the university. Each of those divisions is required to be self supporting without needing aid from tuition dollars. That being said, a mandatory part of tuition is funding for the student gym. I think it came out to be something like $100/student/semester which I'd consider reasonable.

chadash 6y ago
Any individual cost looks justifiable. But they add up. And ultimately, students pay for many of them. With a gym, especially, you can make it optional and charge students who want it. That's the model in many other countries. Similarly, the school newspaper, political clubs, other student activities all get funded from somewhere.