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> See bubble for example - https://bubble.io https://bubble.io . It’s basically “visual” Rails. The intention is to allow users to build complex, interactive so

> See bubble for example - https://bubble.io https://bubble.io . It’s basically “visual” Rails. The intention is to allow users to build complex, interactive software visually, without having to write code. Why the "hate" for code? I immediately understand the problems that typical programming languages have for people who are not trained in programming. But there exist good reasons why other approaches like "visual programming" have failed (except for some niches). So in my opinion the solution is not to "spread hate" against code for a "stupid" market pitch, but take the time to develop programming languages that are better suited to the needs of the customer.

mettamage 6y ago
I can think of a few. Most of these things could also be done with text-based code, but typically aren't when you're just starting out: - No set up issues (visual programming is cloud-based) - Less of a discoverability issue (visual programming shows a lot of things all at once) - A sense of familiarity (people have seen flow chart like things before) - It's easier to see the difference between arguments and parameters Full disclosure: I have almost never seen visual programming languages, but I got the idea that there was no devil's advocate present within you. So here I am ;-) I find it quite easy to think from a beginner's perspective, because in some sense I can't fathom that I know what I know now since I never thought I'd ever know this much in my entire life (and I'm only 31, lol).
- wolfgke 6y ago
  > - No set up issues (visual programming is cloud-based) Cloud-based has nothing to do with visual programming or no-code (you can also do cloud-based editing of conventional code if you desire). Counterexamples: LabVIEW, Simulink. > - Less of a discoverability issue (visual programming shows a lot of things all at once) Wasn't "shows a lot of things all at once" actually an argument (marketing pitch) why conventional programming language overwhelm many people who are not programmers, and visual programming languages are "thus" better because charts have a lot less "intellectual density" than computer code?! > - It's easier to see the difference between arguments and parameters What is actually the difference?
  - mettamage 6y ago
    I said > Most of these things could also be done with text-based code, but typically aren't when you're just starting out This means that it all can be done, but isn't. Which means that it's a cultural issue, not a technical issue. Also, I was under the impression that discussion was about mainstream programming languages and mainstream visual programming languages (of which you said there were none). Here's a workable definition of mainstream: the Stackoverflow top 10. It doesn't have LabVIEW and Simulink. When you discount niches for visual programming, then you have to do it with text-based programming as well, otherwise the argument isn't fair. I presume that you know this. So I find it peculiar that you don't qualify why you're using languages that aren't (seemingly) remotely mainstream, or why you're not using mainstream examples. > Wasn't "shows a lot of things all at once" actually an argument (marketing pitch) why conventional programming language overwhelm many people who are not programmers, and visual programming languages are "thus" better because charts have a lot less "intellectual density" than computer code?! I wouldn't know. I'm quitting this discussion, the exclamation mark + question mark, "what is actually the difference?" There seems to be no wonder or curiosity from your side. Instead it seems purely adverserial.
jfoster 6y ago
There's lots of people who want to do stuff, but code is expensive. They are excited for solutions that let them do "pretty much" what they wanted to, without having to make that investment into code.
- wolfgke 6y ago
  > There's lots of people who want to do stuff, but code is expensive. Nearly every work is expensive if done by other people.
  - jfoster 6y ago
    That's true until the work done can be shared among many. Shopping websites used to often be custom built or unsuitable platforms (eg. web forums) repurposed. Now they're on Shopify. Warehouses used to be something that you rented, fitted out, and hired personnel to run. Now they're Fulfillment by Amazon. Servers started on premise, then moved to data centers, then moved to cloud. With each of these shifts, a little bit of control is given up on order to have these things on-demand at lower cost.
JoeAltmaier 6y ago
Isn't this tool, exactly one of those languages? And their marketing, a filter for the folks that will find it useful?

mettamage 6y ago

I can think of a few. Most of these things could also be done with text-based code, but typically aren't when you're just starting out: - No set up issues (visual programming is cloud-based) - Less of a discoverability issue (visual programming shows a lot of things all at once) - A sense of familiarity (people have seen flow chart like things before) - It's easier to see the difference between arguments and parameters Full disclosure: I have almost never seen visual programming languages, but I got the idea that there was no devil's advocate present within you. So here I am ;-) I find it quite easy to think from a beginner's perspective, because in some sense I can't fathom that I know what I know now since I never thought I'd ever know this much in my entire life (and I'm only 31, lol).

wolfgke 6y ago
> - No set up issues (visual programming is cloud-based) Cloud-based has nothing to do with visual programming or no-code (you can also do cloud-based editing of conventional code if you desire). Counterexamples: LabVIEW, Simulink. > - Less of a discoverability issue (visual programming shows a lot of things all at once) Wasn't "shows a lot of things all at once" actually an argument (marketing pitch) why conventional programming language overwhelm many people who are not programmers, and visual programming languages are "thus" better because charts have a lot less "intellectual density" than computer code?! > - It's easier to see the difference between arguments and parameters What is actually the difference?
- mettamage 6y ago
  I said > Most of these things could also be done with text-based code, but typically aren't when you're just starting out This means that it all can be done, but isn't. Which means that it's a cultural issue, not a technical issue. Also, I was under the impression that discussion was about mainstream programming languages and mainstream visual programming languages (of which you said there were none). Here's a workable definition of mainstream: the Stackoverflow top 10. It doesn't have LabVIEW and Simulink. When you discount niches for visual programming, then you have to do it with text-based programming as well, otherwise the argument isn't fair. I presume that you know this. So I find it peculiar that you don't qualify why you're using languages that aren't (seemingly) remotely mainstream, or why you're not using mainstream examples. > Wasn't "shows a lot of things all at once" actually an argument (marketing pitch) why conventional programming language overwhelm many people who are not programmers, and visual programming languages are "thus" better because charts have a lot less "intellectual density" than computer code?! I wouldn't know. I'm quitting this discussion, the exclamation mark + question mark, "what is actually the difference?" There seems to be no wonder or curiosity from your side. Instead it seems purely adverserial.

jfoster 6y ago

There's lots of people who want to do stuff, but code is expensive. They are excited for solutions that let them do "pretty much" what they wanted to, without having to make that investment into code.

wolfgke 6y ago
> There's lots of people who want to do stuff, but code is expensive. Nearly every work is expensive if done by other people.
- jfoster 6y ago
  That's true until the work done can be shared among many. Shopping websites used to often be custom built or unsuitable platforms (eg. web forums) repurposed. Now they're on Shopify. Warehouses used to be something that you rented, fitted out, and hired personnel to run. Now they're Fulfillment by Amazon. Servers started on premise, then moved to data centers, then moved to cloud. With each of these shifts, a little bit of control is given up on order to have these things on-demand at lower cost.

JoeAltmaier 6y ago

Isn't this tool, exactly one of those languages? And their marketing, a filter for the folks that will find it useful?