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I'm curious, was the official word always that even N95 masks didn't protect the wearer? Or just that "masks" in general (i.e., lesser masks) would not protect

by hsitz 6y ago

I'm curious, was the official word always that even N95 masks didn't protect the wearer? Or just that "masks" in general (i.e., lesser masks) would not protect wearers?

Consultant32452 6y ago
https://twitter.com/Surgeon_General/status/1233725785283932160 https://twitter.com/Surgeon_General/status/12337257852839321... Here he claims masks (general) do not protect you. But they do protect healthcare workers. It amazes me that he was willing to put two such contradictory claims in the same tweet. It was just such a transparent lie. Given the context and implication, I think it is referring to "medical" grade masks including N95, surgical masks, etc.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  I’m genuinely not sure what makes me angrier: the lie, or how fucking lazy it was. The least he could do is come up with something that’s at least plausible.
  - Consultant32452 6y ago
    Look at how effective it is. Even still in this thread.
    - ashtonkem 6y ago
      You have a depressingly good point.
dreamcompiler 6y ago
N95 masks protect healthcare workers because HC workers know how to properly fit them; the general public does not have this training and thus N95 masks are wasted on the GP. Another part of the confusion is that early on (six weeks ago) the assumption was that the virus spread like the flu, i.e. via droplets from coughing and sneezing. Masks alone (without face shields) are of little benefit for droplet-spread disease because they don't protect your eyes. Now we know the virus spreads via aerosols which are generated by talking or even breathing. Cloth masks do indeed help for aerosols by trapping virus particles electrostatically and by increasing humidity, both of which keep the virus out of your respiratory tract. Or so the latest thinking goes. Hanlon's Razor applies, but this virus is also an insidious bastard that behaves very differently from what public health experts had expected.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  I don’t buy it. First of all, there are very different rationales for healthcare workers and the general public to wear masks. Healthcare workers know they will be exposed, so the protocols must be damn near perfect. The general population does not know if they’ll be exposed, they’re trying to work in aggregate to put a drag on the viruses’ spread; even partially effective mask wearing slows that down. The general population can also practice social distancing, while healthcare workers must spend hours in close personal contact with positive patients by the nature of their jobs, vastly increasing their risk. Second, this ignores the fact that mass mask usage prevents you from getting someone else sick. This is in fact exactly why surgeons wear surgical masks. Since we’ve known for months that this disease has asymptomatic transmission, the public health rationale for even cloth mask usage was obvious from the very beginning.
  - 8ytecoder 6y ago
    I used to think like what OP said. But after seeing the response in Asian countries with their much larger families and denser cities working against them and yet slowing the spread, masks might be playing an important role there. It also reminds everyone constantly. It does stop me from touching my face as well. So yeah, even if it's not perfect it's going to help quite a bit.
DanBC 6y ago
N95 masks are used as part of a package of PPE. That includes eye shields, gloves, and gowns. There's a complex protocol to put them on, and to take them off. Without the rest of the kit, and without careful adherence to correct donning and doffing, there are at best marginal benefits to mask wearing. There's some concern that those marginal benefits are eliminated if people wearing masks go on to engage in risky behaviours. These behaviours include increased touching of their face (often without immediate handwashing afterwards), reductions in distance between people, increase in frequency of leaving the home, etc etc.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  Nonsense. PPE is designed to mitigate a completely different level and type of risk. PPE is designed for medical professionals who by the very nature of their job must spend hours in physical contact with known sick patients. The protocols must be strict because failure means guaranteed infection. I on the other hand have no obligation to physically touch random strangers, thank god, and don’t have to go interact with known sick people. Instead I’m trying to provide some protection for myself, and trying to work in aggregate to reduce the risk that asymptomatic carriers spread the disease while doing essential activities. “Marginal benefits” in this context is also known as “reducing R0”, which is absolutely a public health goal. Now all of that is a good argument for saving N95 masks for medical workers and relying on surgical or cloth masks for the general public, especially in the light of PPE shortages. But that is an entirely different argument from “masks don’t work”.
  - DanBC 6y ago
    > I on the other hand have no obligation to physically touch random strangers, thank god, and don’t have to go interact with known sick people. What's the point of wearing the mask then?
    - ashtonkem 6y ago
      Gotta go get groceries at some point, and that means breathing in the air someone else exhaled.

by hsitz 6y ago

I'm curious, was the official word always that even N95 masks didn't protect the wearer? Or just that "masks" in general (i.e., lesser masks) would not protect wearers?

Consultant32452 6y ago

https://twitter.com/Surgeon_General/status/1233725785283932160 https://twitter.com/Surgeon_General/status/12337257852839321... Here he claims masks (general) do not protect you. But they do protect healthcare workers. It amazes me that he was willing to put two such contradictory claims in the same tweet. It was just such a transparent lie. Given the context and implication, I think it is referring to "medical" grade masks including N95, surgical masks, etc.

ashtonkem 6y ago
I’m genuinely not sure what makes me angrier: the lie, or how fucking lazy it was. The least he could do is come up with something that’s at least plausible.
- Consultant32452 6y ago
  Look at how effective it is. Even still in this thread.
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    You have a depressingly good point.

dreamcompiler 6y ago

N95 masks protect healthcare workers because HC workers know how to properly fit them; the general public does not have this training and thus N95 masks are wasted on the GP. Another part of the confusion is that early on (six weeks ago) the assumption was that the virus spread like the flu, i.e. via droplets from coughing and sneezing. Masks alone (without face shields) are of little benefit for droplet-spread disease because they don't protect your eyes. Now we know the virus spreads via aerosols which are generated by talking or even breathing. Cloth masks do indeed help for aerosols by trapping virus particles electrostatically and by increasing humidity, both of which keep the virus out of your respiratory tract. Or so the latest thinking goes. Hanlon's Razor applies, but this virus is also an insidious bastard that behaves very differently from what public health experts had expected.

ashtonkem 6y ago
I don’t buy it. First of all, there are very different rationales for healthcare workers and the general public to wear masks. Healthcare workers know they will be exposed, so the protocols must be damn near perfect. The general population does not know if they’ll be exposed, they’re trying to work in aggregate to put a drag on the viruses’ spread; even partially effective mask wearing slows that down. The general population can also practice social distancing, while healthcare workers must spend hours in close personal contact with positive patients by the nature of their jobs, vastly increasing their risk. Second, this ignores the fact that mass mask usage prevents you from getting someone else sick. This is in fact exactly why surgeons wear surgical masks. Since we’ve known for months that this disease has asymptomatic transmission, the public health rationale for even cloth mask usage was obvious from the very beginning.
- 8ytecoder 6y ago
  I used to think like what OP said. But after seeing the response in Asian countries with their much larger families and denser cities working against them and yet slowing the spread, masks might be playing an important role there. It also reminds everyone constantly. It does stop me from touching my face as well. So yeah, even if it's not perfect it's going to help quite a bit.

DanBC 6y ago

N95 masks are used as part of a package of PPE. That includes eye shields, gloves, and gowns. There's a complex protocol to put them on, and to take them off. Without the rest of the kit, and without careful adherence to correct donning and doffing, there are at best marginal benefits to mask wearing. There's some concern that those marginal benefits are eliminated if people wearing masks go on to engage in risky behaviours. These behaviours include increased touching of their face (often without immediate handwashing afterwards), reductions in distance between people, increase in frequency of leaving the home, etc etc.

ashtonkem 6y ago
Nonsense. PPE is designed to mitigate a completely different level and type of risk. PPE is designed for medical professionals who by the very nature of their job must spend hours in physical contact with known sick patients. The protocols must be strict because failure means guaranteed infection. I on the other hand have no obligation to physically touch random strangers, thank god, and don’t have to go interact with known sick people. Instead I’m trying to provide some protection for myself, and trying to work in aggregate to reduce the risk that asymptomatic carriers spread the disease while doing essential activities. “Marginal benefits” in this context is also known as “reducing R0”, which is absolutely a public health goal. Now all of that is a good argument for saving N95 masks for medical workers and relying on surgical or cloth masks for the general public, especially in the light of PPE shortages. But that is an entirely different argument from “masks don’t work”.
- DanBC 6y ago
  > I on the other hand have no obligation to physically touch random strangers, thank god, and don’t have to go interact with known sick people. What's the point of wearing the mask then?
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    Gotta go get groceries at some point, and that means breathing in the air someone else exhaled.