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If you tell people to save masks for healthcare workers... then the hoarding would have been worse. At least by telling people masks don't work... peer pressur

If you tell people to save masks for healthcare workers... then the hoarding would have been worse. At least by telling people masks don't work... peer pressure would keep them from buying them?

ashtonkem 7y ago
It doesn’t look like anyone bought it, masks still sold out quickly and health care providers are still reusing N95 masks. And in exchange the CDC spent a large amount of their credibility; a real lose lose.
- PopePompus 7y ago
  That's because the lies were so transparent. In the US we were told (by our wonderful Surgeon General) that citizens who wore masks were actually more apt to get covid than persons without masks.
- hsitz 7y ago
  I'm curious, was the official word always that even N95 masks didn't protect the wearer? Or just that "masks" in general (i.e., lesser masks) would not protect wearers?
  - Consultant32452 7y ago
    https://twitter.com/Surgeon_General/status/1233725785283932160 https://twitter.com/Surgeon_General/status/12337257852839321... Here he claims masks (general) do not protect you. But they do protect healthcare workers. It amazes me that he was willing to put two such contradictory claims in the same tweet. It was just such a transparent lie. Given the context and implication, I think it is referring to "medical" grade masks including N95, surgical masks, etc.
    - ashtonkem 7y ago
      I’m genuinely not sure what makes me angrier: the lie, or how fucking lazy it was. The least he could do is come up with something that’s at least plausible.
      - Consultant32452 7y ago
        Look at how effective it is. Even still in this thread.
        ashtonkem 7y ago
        You have a depressingly good point.
  - dreamcompiler 7y ago
    N95 masks protect healthcare workers because HC workers know how to properly fit them; the general public does not have this training and thus N95 masks are wasted on the GP. Another part of the confusion is that early on (six weeks ago) the assumption was that the virus spread like the flu, i.e. via droplets from coughing and sneezing. Masks alone (without face shields) are of little benefit for droplet-spread disease because they don't protect your eyes. Now we know the virus spreads via aerosols which are generated by talking or even breathing. Cloth masks do indeed help for aerosols by trapping virus particles electrostatically and by increasing humidity, both of which keep the virus out of your respiratory tract. Or so the latest thinking goes. Hanlon's Razor applies, but this virus is also an insidious bastard that behaves very differently from what public health experts had expected.
    - ashtonkem 7y ago
      I don’t buy it. First of all, there are very different rationales for healthcare workers and the general public to wear masks. Healthcare workers know they will be exposed, so the protocols must be damn near perfect. The general population does not know if they’ll be exposed, they’re trying to work in aggregate to put a drag on the viruses’ spread; even partially effective mask wearing slows that down. The general population can also practice social distancing, while healthcare workers must spend hours in close personal contact with positive patients by the nature of their jobs, vastly increasing their risk. Second, this ignores the fact that mass mask usage prevents you from getting someone else sick. This is in fact exactly why surgeons wear surgical masks. Since we’ve known for months that this disease has asymptomatic transmission, the public health rationale for even cloth mask usage was obvious from the very beginning.
      - 8ytecoder 7y ago
        I used to think like what OP said. But after seeing the response in Asian countries with their much larger families and denser cities working against them and yet slowing the spread, masks might be playing an important role there. It also reminds everyone constantly. It does stop me from touching my face as well. So yeah, even if it's not perfect it's going to help quite a bit.
  - DanBC 7y ago
    N95 masks are used as part of a package of PPE. That includes eye shields, gloves, and gowns. There's a complex protocol to put them on, and to take them off. Without the rest of the kit, and without careful adherence to correct donning and doffing, there are at best marginal benefits to mask wearing. There's some concern that those marginal benefits are eliminated if people wearing masks go on to engage in risky behaviours. These behaviours include increased touching of their face (often without immediate handwashing afterwards), reductions in distance between people, increase in frequency of leaving the home, etc etc.
    - ashtonkem 7y ago
      Nonsense. PPE is designed to mitigate a completely different level and type of risk. PPE is designed for medical professionals who by the very nature of their job must spend hours in physical contact with known sick patients. The protocols must be strict because failure means guaranteed infection. I on the other hand have no obligation to physically touch random strangers, thank god, and don’t have to go interact with known sick people. Instead I’m trying to provide some protection for myself, and trying to work in aggregate to reduce the risk that asymptomatic carriers spread the disease while doing essential activities. “Marginal benefits” in this context is also known as “reducing R0”, which is absolutely a public health goal. Now all of that is a good argument for saving N95 masks for medical workers and relying on surgical or cloth masks for the general public, especially in the light of PPE shortages. But that is an entirely different argument from “masks don’t work”.
      - DanBC 7y ago
        > I on the other hand have no obligation to physically touch random strangers, thank god, and don’t have to go interact with known sick people. What's the point of wearing the mask then?
        ashtonkem 7y ago
        Gotta go get groceries at some point, and that means breathing in the air someone else exhaled.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
eli 7y ago
I don’t know if that’s true or not, but I’m certain that lying to the public about what they can do to stop the virus was a bad call and will have lasting harm.
- ooobit2 7y ago
  Not just a bad call, the lack of ownership by Democrats and their half-working-on-the-issue, half-keeping-the-Trump-tabloid-train-moving throughout all of this contributed significantly to the overall failure, and has played a huge role in us reaching Great Depression-era economic status. Every overblown executive order, news report, today-people-are-dangerous, tomorrow-we're-readying-to-reopen. Lying was just phase one or two. We're up to phase six now.
- loopz 7y ago
  We hear the same over the pond. The argument is that the masks may not be fit for purpose or be used incorrectly, thus might actually be more contagious as people will tend to touch their faces more often etc. The official stances are still that people need training in order to use masks correctly, and the masks must meet standards to protect the user. All masks may protect others to some degree though. "Masks work, don't work" are not cogent arguments. It's the same with plastic gloves. Their usage in ie. grocery stores etc. may not help as much as incorrect usage may work against the intention. Again the argument is that if you get your hands dirty, you know you need to wash your hands and might think twice before touching face. Even washing hands properly require some training. We've since learned that less extreme measures may be good enough once you have control, testing and tracking.
ramraj07 7y ago
The problem is no one likes to look stupid, and this is one of the cases where anyone who can spell words together was able to see through the BS. Whether they are going to hoard it or not, the solution is not for an expert to lie to the public.

If you tell people to save masks for healthcare workers... then the hoarding would have been worse. At least by telling people masks don't work... peer pressure would keep them from buying them?

ashtonkem 7y ago

It doesn’t look like anyone bought it, masks still sold out quickly and health care providers are still reusing N95 masks. And in exchange the CDC spent a large amount of their credibility; a real lose lose.

PopePompus 7y ago
That's because the lies were so transparent. In the US we were told (by our wonderful Surgeon General) that citizens who wore masks were actually more apt to get covid than persons without masks.
hsitz 7y ago
I'm curious, was the official word always that even N95 masks didn't protect the wearer? Or just that "masks" in general (i.e., lesser masks) would not protect wearers?
- Consultant32452 7y ago
  https://twitter.com/Surgeon_General/status/1233725785283932160 https://twitter.com/Surgeon_General/status/12337257852839321... Here he claims masks (general) do not protect you. But they do protect healthcare workers. It amazes me that he was willing to put two such contradictory claims in the same tweet. It was just such a transparent lie. Given the context and implication, I think it is referring to "medical" grade masks including N95, surgical masks, etc.
  - ashtonkem 7y ago
    I’m genuinely not sure what makes me angrier: the lie, or how fucking lazy it was. The least he could do is come up with something that’s at least plausible.
    - Consultant32452 7y ago
      Look at how effective it is. Even still in this thread.
      - ashtonkem 7y ago
        You have a depressingly good point.
- dreamcompiler 7y ago
  N95 masks protect healthcare workers because HC workers know how to properly fit them; the general public does not have this training and thus N95 masks are wasted on the GP. Another part of the confusion is that early on (six weeks ago) the assumption was that the virus spread like the flu, i.e. via droplets from coughing and sneezing. Masks alone (without face shields) are of little benefit for droplet-spread disease because they don't protect your eyes. Now we know the virus spreads via aerosols which are generated by talking or even breathing. Cloth masks do indeed help for aerosols by trapping virus particles electrostatically and by increasing humidity, both of which keep the virus out of your respiratory tract. Or so the latest thinking goes. Hanlon's Razor applies, but this virus is also an insidious bastard that behaves very differently from what public health experts had expected.
  - ashtonkem 7y ago
    I don’t buy it. First of all, there are very different rationales for healthcare workers and the general public to wear masks. Healthcare workers know they will be exposed, so the protocols must be damn near perfect. The general population does not know if they’ll be exposed, they’re trying to work in aggregate to put a drag on the viruses’ spread; even partially effective mask wearing slows that down. The general population can also practice social distancing, while healthcare workers must spend hours in close personal contact with positive patients by the nature of their jobs, vastly increasing their risk. Second, this ignores the fact that mass mask usage prevents you from getting someone else sick. This is in fact exactly why surgeons wear surgical masks. Since we’ve known for months that this disease has asymptomatic transmission, the public health rationale for even cloth mask usage was obvious from the very beginning.
    - 8ytecoder 7y ago
      I used to think like what OP said. But after seeing the response in Asian countries with their much larger families and denser cities working against them and yet slowing the spread, masks might be playing an important role there. It also reminds everyone constantly. It does stop me from touching my face as well. So yeah, even if it's not perfect it's going to help quite a bit.
- DanBC 7y ago
  N95 masks are used as part of a package of PPE. That includes eye shields, gloves, and gowns. There's a complex protocol to put them on, and to take them off. Without the rest of the kit, and without careful adherence to correct donning and doffing, there are at best marginal benefits to mask wearing. There's some concern that those marginal benefits are eliminated if people wearing masks go on to engage in risky behaviours. These behaviours include increased touching of their face (often without immediate handwashing afterwards), reductions in distance between people, increase in frequency of leaving the home, etc etc.
  - ashtonkem 7y ago
    Nonsense. PPE is designed to mitigate a completely different level and type of risk. PPE is designed for medical professionals who by the very nature of their job must spend hours in physical contact with known sick patients. The protocols must be strict because failure means guaranteed infection. I on the other hand have no obligation to physically touch random strangers, thank god, and don’t have to go interact with known sick people. Instead I’m trying to provide some protection for myself, and trying to work in aggregate to reduce the risk that asymptomatic carriers spread the disease while doing essential activities. “Marginal benefits” in this context is also known as “reducing R0”, which is absolutely a public health goal. Now all of that is a good argument for saving N95 masks for medical workers and relying on surgical or cloth masks for the general public, especially in the light of PPE shortages. But that is an entirely different argument from “masks don’t work”.
    - DanBC 7y ago
      > I on the other hand have no obligation to physically touch random strangers, thank god, and don’t have to go interact with known sick people. What's the point of wearing the mask then?
      - ashtonkem 7y ago
        Gotta go get groceries at some point, and that means breathing in the air someone else exhaled.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

eli 7y ago

I don’t know if that’s true or not, but I’m certain that lying to the public about what they can do to stop the virus was a bad call and will have lasting harm.

ooobit2 7y ago
Not just a bad call, the lack of ownership by Democrats and their half-working-on-the-issue, half-keeping-the-Trump-tabloid-train-moving throughout all of this contributed significantly to the overall failure, and has played a huge role in us reaching Great Depression-era economic status. Every overblown executive order, news report, today-people-are-dangerous, tomorrow-we're-readying-to-reopen. Lying was just phase one or two. We're up to phase six now.
loopz 7y ago
We hear the same over the pond. The argument is that the masks may not be fit for purpose or be used incorrectly, thus might actually be more contagious as people will tend to touch their faces more often etc. The official stances are still that people need training in order to use masks correctly, and the masks must meet standards to protect the user. All masks may protect others to some degree though. "Masks work, don't work" are not cogent arguments. It's the same with plastic gloves. Their usage in ie. grocery stores etc. may not help as much as incorrect usage may work against the intention. Again the argument is that if you get your hands dirty, you know you need to wash your hands and might think twice before touching face. Even washing hands properly require some training. We've since learned that less extreme measures may be good enough once you have control, testing and tracking.

ramraj07 7y ago

The problem is no one likes to look stupid, and this is one of the cases where anyone who can spell words together was able to see through the BS. Whether they are going to hoard it or not, the solution is not for an expert to lie to the public.