5 ms·

> it’s been well shown that you can beat any computer game using RL. Starcraft has not been beaten yet. DeepMind's AlphaStar is a grandmaster, but is nowhere n

by ipsum2 7y ago

> it’s been well shown that you can beat any computer game using RL. Starcraft has not been beaten yet. DeepMind's AlphaStar is a grandmaster, but is nowhere near world champion levels.

TulliusCicero 7y ago
It's probably not even grandmaster if you restrict it to human-level mechanics. I know what DeepMind has said about APM, but if you look at how it functions it's still superhuman (like the fact that it never uses control groups since it can always arbitrarily select whatever subgroup of units it wants instantly with no mistakes).
- chupasaurus 7y ago
  Deepmind's AI would be ranked in 5800-6000 MMR range by Blizzard if they would actually use the matchmaking instead of random opponents and a ELO calculation formula which wasn't suited for the circumstances nor used by Blizzard. It's actual win-loss ratios against opponents below and above 6000 were: T — 15-4 and 3-8, Z — 15-8 and 3-4, P — 26-1 and 0-3 (which produced whooping 6352 by formula DM used).
  - TulliusCicero 7y ago
    This completely ignores what I just said.
arcticfox 7y ago
It's really hard to say with AlphaStar, because it depends enormously on what type of APM constraints the developers put on it. As much as I love the strategy of StarCraft, brute force is incredibly important. Serral, the best player in the world at the time by a wide margin, played some fun games against a few lower level European pros controlling the same opponent and it was so lopsided he quit after ~2 games. If AlphaStar is allowed just slightly too much micro it's easily world champion beating (eg the version that killed TLO in the original demo, it was winning fights that should have been blunders), and too little and it can get squashed by regular GMs. I don't know how the competition can ever really be calibrated to be fair. The latest version of AlphaStar was fun because they tuned it to be good but not unstoppable, but I have no idea if those were 'fair' settings or not. Maybe AlphaStar was too handicapped.

by ipsum2 7y ago

> it’s been well shown that you can beat any computer game using RL. Starcraft has not been beaten yet. DeepMind's AlphaStar is a grandmaster, but is nowhere near world champion levels.

TulliusCicero 7y ago

It's probably not even grandmaster if you restrict it to human-level mechanics. I know what DeepMind has said about APM, but if you look at how it functions it's still superhuman (like the fact that it never uses control groups since it can always arbitrarily select whatever subgroup of units it wants instantly with no mistakes).

chupasaurus 7y ago
Deepmind's AI would be ranked in 5800-6000 MMR range by Blizzard if they would actually use the matchmaking instead of random opponents and a ELO calculation formula which wasn't suited for the circumstances nor used by Blizzard. It's actual win-loss ratios against opponents below and above 6000 were: T — 15-4 and 3-8, Z — 15-8 and 3-4, P — 26-1 and 0-3 (which produced whooping 6352 by formula DM used).
- TulliusCicero 7y ago
  This completely ignores what I just said.

arcticfox 7y ago

It's really hard to say with AlphaStar, because it depends enormously on what type of APM constraints the developers put on it. As much as I love the strategy of StarCraft, brute force is incredibly important. Serral, the best player in the world at the time by a wide margin, played some fun games against a few lower level European pros controlling the same opponent and it was so lopsided he quit after ~2 games. If AlphaStar is allowed just slightly too much micro it's easily world champion beating (eg the version that killed TLO in the original demo, it was winning fights that should have been blunders), and too little and it can get squashed by regular GMs. I don't know how the competition can ever really be calibrated to be fair. The latest version of AlphaStar was fun because they tuned it to be good but not unstoppable, but I have no idea if those were 'fair' settings or not. Maybe AlphaStar was too handicapped.