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To be fairly honest, lots of extremely competent people hold some batshit insane opinions about a lot of pretty important things. I posit Steve Jobs and his al

To be fairly honest, lots of extremely competent people hold some batshit insane opinions about a lot of pretty important things. I posit Steve Jobs and his alternative therapy beliefs: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4924574/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4924574/

markstos 7y ago
What did you want readers to get out of that link to support your argument that Steve Jobs therapy beliefs were batshit insane? From the link: "It is unknown whether Jobs’ outcomes would have been different if he had pursued surgery at the time of his diagnosis, or if had followed a specific chemotherapy protocol. And it is unknown how effective any of his acupuncture, botanical and dietary approaches may have been before or after his surgery." Dr. McDougall concluded that "The overall consensus was, and still is, that Jobs acted selfishly, stupidly, and irresponsibly when he refused surgery in October of 2003, at the time of his original diagnosis. Based on the natural history of his disease, Jobs acted in none of these ways. The cancer had spread many years before his diagnosis, and was unstoppable by any means." https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2011nl/nov/jobs.htm https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2011nl/nov/jobs.htm
- Zenbit_UX 7y ago
  While not about therapy, his strict fruit diet despite all warnings should be evidence enough of Ops point.
Barrin92 7y ago
The difference being that Steve Jobs wasn't up at 2 am in the morning ranting about taking his company private at 420. The reason why there's a pretty compelling reason to point out that Steve Jobs was a good leader was because he actually did good things, and the company struggled in his abscence. What has Elon himself actually done that looks like good management? Put an adult in charge of the company and see if they can't do better.
- oska 7y ago
  > What has Elon himself actually done that looks like good management? Plenty. I'm a huge critic of Elon's tweeting on Covid-19 (see elsewhere in this thread) but to argue that Elon is not a good manager of the companies he runs is completely in conflict with reality (the reality of his successfully founding and running two massively successful companies).
  - Barrin92 7y ago
    >but to argue that Elon is not a good manager of the companies he runs is completely in conflict with reality it's really not because there are plenty of reasons why those companies are successful, none of which can be traced to Elon. If people want to fawn over someone they should pay some respect to Tom Mueller who actually builts the engines that make those rockets fly. Again, if he is such a good manager, which of his moves were that great? In concrete terms, rather than just giving me some argument from correlation. I would really like to be convinced why i should believe that those companies are successful because of, not despite of him running them. History has more than enough examples of horrible managers in charge of great businesses.
    - saberience 7y ago
      I'm not sure how to explain this to someone who seems outright determined to see Elon through some sort of negative lens, but it's not possible to be a "bad manager" and do what Elon has done. I'm not sure if you even understand what makes a good manager. Why does Tom Muller work for SpaceX? Did you ever ask that question? Tom Muller was identified by Elon and recruited by Elon. Great managers understand how to identify and attract talent, they understand who to promote and who to fire, who to listen to etc. If Tesla and SpaceX are doing well (and I'd argue they are both massive successes), then a huge part of that is down to Elon's hiring and people management skills, along with his strategic vision. If Elon was such a terrible manager, he wouldn't have as talented people working for him. Also, if he was such a bad manager, he wouldn't have hired or found those people in the first place. One of my good friends (an engineer) recently left my previous company to go and work for Tesla, part of the reason he did that was due to Elon Musk. You can choose to dislike him, but people go to his companies often because of Elon himself. One axiom of successful leadership or management is that the value of any leader is the total cumulative value produced by all the people under them in the leadership hierarchy since they are influencing, directly and indirectly, all of those people. We can rate Elon's success as a manager and leader as extremely high, because SpaceX and Tesla are hugely successful companies.
paganel 7y ago
> lots of extremely competent people hold some batshit insane opinions about a lot of pretty important things. Talking about the same industry and about extremely competent people, John Ford was a Nazi sympathiser and he actively promoted "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", which was pretty batshit insane.

markstos 7y ago

What did you want readers to get out of that link to support your argument that Steve Jobs therapy beliefs were batshit insane? From the link: "It is unknown whether Jobs’ outcomes would have been different if he had pursued surgery at the time of his diagnosis, or if had followed a specific chemotherapy protocol. And it is unknown how effective any of his acupuncture, botanical and dietary approaches may have been before or after his surgery." Dr. McDougall concluded that "The overall consensus was, and still is, that Jobs acted selfishly, stupidly, and irresponsibly when he refused surgery in October of 2003, at the time of his original diagnosis. Based on the natural history of his disease, Jobs acted in none of these ways. The cancer had spread many years before his diagnosis, and was unstoppable by any means." https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2011nl/nov/jobs.htm https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2011nl/nov/jobs.htm

Zenbit_UX 7y ago
While not about therapy, his strict fruit diet despite all warnings should be evidence enough of Ops point.

Barrin92 7y ago

The difference being that Steve Jobs wasn't up at 2 am in the morning ranting about taking his company private at 420. The reason why there's a pretty compelling reason to point out that Steve Jobs was a good leader was because he actually did good things, and the company struggled in his abscence. What has Elon himself actually done that looks like good management? Put an adult in charge of the company and see if they can't do better.

oska 7y ago
> What has Elon himself actually done that looks like good management? Plenty. I'm a huge critic of Elon's tweeting on Covid-19 (see elsewhere in this thread) but to argue that Elon is not a good manager of the companies he runs is completely in conflict with reality (the reality of his successfully founding and running two massively successful companies).
- Barrin92 7y ago
  >but to argue that Elon is not a good manager of the companies he runs is completely in conflict with reality it's really not because there are plenty of reasons why those companies are successful, none of which can be traced to Elon. If people want to fawn over someone they should pay some respect to Tom Mueller who actually builts the engines that make those rockets fly. Again, if he is such a good manager, which of his moves were that great? In concrete terms, rather than just giving me some argument from correlation. I would really like to be convinced why i should believe that those companies are successful because of, not despite of him running them. History has more than enough examples of horrible managers in charge of great businesses.
  - saberience 7y ago
    I'm not sure how to explain this to someone who seems outright determined to see Elon through some sort of negative lens, but it's not possible to be a "bad manager" and do what Elon has done. I'm not sure if you even understand what makes a good manager. Why does Tom Muller work for SpaceX? Did you ever ask that question? Tom Muller was identified by Elon and recruited by Elon. Great managers understand how to identify and attract talent, they understand who to promote and who to fire, who to listen to etc. If Tesla and SpaceX are doing well (and I'd argue they are both massive successes), then a huge part of that is down to Elon's hiring and people management skills, along with his strategic vision. If Elon was such a terrible manager, he wouldn't have as talented people working for him. Also, if he was such a bad manager, he wouldn't have hired or found those people in the first place. One of my good friends (an engineer) recently left my previous company to go and work for Tesla, part of the reason he did that was due to Elon Musk. You can choose to dislike him, but people go to his companies often because of Elon himself. One axiom of successful leadership or management is that the value of any leader is the total cumulative value produced by all the people under them in the leadership hierarchy since they are influencing, directly and indirectly, all of those people. We can rate Elon's success as a manager and leader as extremely high, because SpaceX and Tesla are hugely successful companies.

paganel 7y ago

> lots of extremely competent people hold some batshit insane opinions about a lot of pretty important things. Talking about the same industry and about extremely competent people, John Ford was a Nazi sympathiser and he actively promoted "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", which was pretty batshit insane.