6 ms·

I never said that this is "just the flu". I put some thought into my comment, and it's provoked some discussion. Let me provoke some more: I predict that, by

I never said that this is "just the flu". I put some thought into my comment, and it's provoked some discussion. Let me provoke some more: I predict that, by the end of this year, the number of total deaths in people over 85 will be about the same as last year. I'm using the fact that most deaths from this virus occur in people who are already ill from other conditions. Frail old people are much more vulnerable to succumbing to infections. Last year, about 13.5% of people over age 85 in the USA died [1]. That high death rate means that, at some point in the year, 13.5% of those people fell very ill, and had only months to live. This year, without the pandemic, a similar proportion of people would be close to death. If they caught the virus that causes covid-19, their death would be hastened. However, they would have died anyway, this year. I know it's callous to say "they would have died anyway," since death is a terrible thing. However, humans have a limited lifespan, for some mysterious reason, and at some point our bodies start to betray us: we develop heart disease or cancer, and our immune systems become less effective. It's as if our bodies are lowering their defenses, almost inviting death. Often, along comes a flu, to finish the job. This year's angel of death is a different respiratory virus, not influenza. 1. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db355.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db355.htm

slg 6y ago
According to this admittedly outdated CDC page[1], the 85+ age group makes up 30% of COVID-19 deaths. Even if you are right about that group (which I think is feasible but unlikely), there is still a huge population of people who are dying who were not previously close to dying. [1] - https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/index.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/index.htm
- arcticbull 6y ago
  That's not an entirely fair way to slice, since only 6% of deaths in any age group are folks without comorbidities. I'll dig up the reference, pretty sure it was NYC data. We'll have to wait for the dust to settle but I'm pretty sure we're looking at an upper bound worst-case of basically everything we've measured re COVID.
  - tptacek 6y ago
    I'm at a loss for why anyone should care about the fact that younger people dying have "comorbidities". If asthma or hypertension have suddenly become a death sentence, that is a very big deal; virtually every American has families with one of the "qualifying" C19 comorbidities.
    - arcticbull 6y ago
      It's not a death sentence by any stretch, you're substantially overreacting. CDC data puts the US flu fatality rate at 0.1% (up to 20-60,000 deaths for 45,000,000 annual infections ~= 0.1%) and serology studies are putting COVID at around 0.3% -- not adjusting for comorbidities. So it's worse than the flu overall, but massively skewed older so for young and especially young and healthy people it's not materially different than the flu. For kids, its better than the flu -- which kills both the young and the old. And yeah, the flu kills seemingly young and healthy people, too, we just don't really talk about it. For old folks, it's much worse. We need to keep them safe, but that doesn't mean we need to freak out about children catching it when they're gonna be just fine. [1] Remember 99.2% of the folks who died in Italy averaged 80.5 years old with an average of 3 comorbidities. Zero health professionals under the age of 49 died in Italy despite constant and repeated exposure. [2] Not everyone is equally affected by COVID and for the overwhelming majority (99.7% of all people), it's by no means a death sentence. I strongly suggest you read [2] for perspective. I know all the breathless screaming on television has colored your perspective on all this, and yeah, it's not great. However, allow data to be your guide. We're gonna be just fine. [1] https://www.wsj.com/articles/consensus-is-emerging-that-children-are-less-vulnerable-to-coronavirus-11587988688 https://www.wsj.com/articles/consensus-is-emerging-that-chil... [2] https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/ https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/global-covid-19-case-fatality-...
      - slg 6y ago
        It is weird how you are insistent on focusing in on how comorbidities impact COVID patients but ignore the same comorbidity issues for flu patients. Also not all comorbidities are created equal. I can understand the original argument if everyone dying of COVID-19 had stage 4 lung cancer, but there are people dying with chronic conditions like asthma that traditionally have little impact on life expectancy. Also the 0.3% number you are referencing is being questioned as other serology studies have shown it to be 2x-3x higher. The reality of the situation is that we don't know the exact fatality rate of COVID-19. What we do know is that it is at least a few times more deadly than the flu and potentially an order of magnitude more deadly. We also know that the coronavirus is much more infectious than the flu. Like previously mentioned, we have already passed the worst flu numbers even while most of us are under a stay at home order. It seems like no matter how you look at the data, the only way in which COVID-19 is not worse than the flu is how it impact the very young. COVID is more deadly in basically every other way. I honestly don't see what people gain from continuing to downplay this disease in relation to the flu.

slg 6y ago

According to this admittedly outdated CDC page[1], the 85+ age group makes up 30% of COVID-19 deaths. Even if you are right about that group (which I think is feasible but unlikely), there is still a huge population of people who are dying who were not previously close to dying. [1] - https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/index.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/index.htm

arcticbull 6y ago
That's not an entirely fair way to slice, since only 6% of deaths in any age group are folks without comorbidities. I'll dig up the reference, pretty sure it was NYC data. We'll have to wait for the dust to settle but I'm pretty sure we're looking at an upper bound worst-case of basically everything we've measured re COVID.
- tptacek 6y ago
  I'm at a loss for why anyone should care about the fact that younger people dying have "comorbidities". If asthma or hypertension have suddenly become a death sentence, that is a very big deal; virtually every American has families with one of the "qualifying" C19 comorbidities.
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    It's not a death sentence by any stretch, you're substantially overreacting. CDC data puts the US flu fatality rate at 0.1% (up to 20-60,000 deaths for 45,000,000 annual infections ~= 0.1%) and serology studies are putting COVID at around 0.3% -- not adjusting for comorbidities. So it's worse than the flu overall, but massively skewed older so for young and especially young and healthy people it's not materially different than the flu. For kids, its better than the flu -- which kills both the young and the old. And yeah, the flu kills seemingly young and healthy people, too, we just don't really talk about it. For old folks, it's much worse. We need to keep them safe, but that doesn't mean we need to freak out about children catching it when they're gonna be just fine. [1] Remember 99.2% of the folks who died in Italy averaged 80.5 years old with an average of 3 comorbidities. Zero health professionals under the age of 49 died in Italy despite constant and repeated exposure. [2] Not everyone is equally affected by COVID and for the overwhelming majority (99.7% of all people), it's by no means a death sentence. I strongly suggest you read [2] for perspective. I know all the breathless screaming on television has colored your perspective on all this, and yeah, it's not great. However, allow data to be your guide. We're gonna be just fine. [1] https://www.wsj.com/articles/consensus-is-emerging-that-children-are-less-vulnerable-to-coronavirus-11587988688 https://www.wsj.com/articles/consensus-is-emerging-that-chil... [2] https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/ https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/global-covid-19-case-fatality-...
    - slg 6y ago
      It is weird how you are insistent on focusing in on how comorbidities impact COVID patients but ignore the same comorbidity issues for flu patients. Also not all comorbidities are created equal. I can understand the original argument if everyone dying of COVID-19 had stage 4 lung cancer, but there are people dying with chronic conditions like asthma that traditionally have little impact on life expectancy. Also the 0.3% number you are referencing is being questioned as other serology studies have shown it to be 2x-3x higher. The reality of the situation is that we don't know the exact fatality rate of COVID-19. What we do know is that it is at least a few times more deadly than the flu and potentially an order of magnitude more deadly. We also know that the coronavirus is much more infectious than the flu. Like previously mentioned, we have already passed the worst flu numbers even while most of us are under a stay at home order. It seems like no matter how you look at the data, the only way in which COVID-19 is not worse than the flu is how it impact the very young. COVID is more deadly in basically every other way. I honestly don't see what people gain from continuing to downplay this disease in relation to the flu.