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End game for people like McConnell is that it puts downwards pressure on unions. A bankruptcy if a law is passed actually allowing states to go bankrupt would b

End game for people like McConnell is that it puts downwards pressure on unions. A bankruptcy if a law is passed actually allowing states to go bankrupt would be a process overseen by federal courts, many of which are chaired by Trump appointed judges now. The judge gets to decide which debts are paid, meaning that pensions are very likely going to be chopped, hurting union members. There are other reasons. Bottom line is that they want rich people (their primary donors) to get richer and don't care about poor or middle class. They are very open about it now and still somehow supported. This is a good read on it: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/04/why-mitch-mcconnell-wants-states-go-bankrupt/610714/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/04/why-mitch-...

chrisseaton 7y ago
> The judge gets to decide which debts are paid, meaning that pensions are very likely going to be chopped, hurting union members. I don't understand this. What is the connection between pensions and union members?
- ForHackernews 7y ago
  Historically, pension benefits were one of the main benefits unions fought for (and won) so that their members could have an income in their old age and retire. Today, very few workers still have pensions, but the few that do tend to be those represented by a union. In many states, this includes government employees: teachers, firefighters, police, etc.
  - chrisseaton 7y ago
    > Today, very few workers still have pensions I've never seen a professional job that didn't include a pension - certainly not in the tech industry.
    - wikibob 7y ago
      Are you in the USA? Pensions are defined benefit. That is, it is specified exactly how much money you will receive in retirement. A 401K retirement plan is not a pension. You save your own money and possibly an employer contribution, and you make your own investment decisions. The value goes up and down in accordance with what you invested in.
      - chrisseaton 7y ago
        > A 401K retirement plan is not a pension. Are we both talking about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/401(k) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/401(k)? "In the United States, a 401(k) plan is the tax-qualified, defined-contribution pension"
        Loughla 7y ago
        Defined contribution (401k) is not the same as defined benefit (pension).
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - beefalo 7y ago
      Here have you seen a pension in the tech industry? 401ks are ubiquitous but no modern companies offer pensions
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - jgwil2 7y ago
      Why are you going all up and down this thread trying to pedantically show that people are using the term "pension" slightly differently to Wikipedia's definition? It's not contributing anything to the discussion.
      - chrisseaton 7y ago
        Well I just don’t get it. People say ‘nobody gets a pension anymore’ but a 401(k) is just a different type of pension. My defines benefit savings plans literally say ‘pension’ in the product names.
        ryan93 7y ago
        The state pensions have no risk. They get a guaranteed payout regardless of stock market performance. The difference comes out of taxpayer pockets. With a 401k if the stock market crashes you are out of lock. The taxpayers won’t chip in the difference
  - klipt 7y ago
    And everyone else has 401ks which also suffer in a crisis, but the federal government can't bail out red state 401ks without also helping blue state 401ks, so in that sense 401ks are safer than pensions.
    - ForHackernews 7y ago
      I don't even know what it would mean to "bail out" a 401(k). By definition you, the employee, are exposed to all the market risk. If you happen to reach retirement age in a down market, you're kinda just screwed. Should've made better investment choices 15 years ago. This is why traditional pensions were usually a better deal for most employees.
      - klipt 7y ago
        > I don't even know what it would mean to "bail out" a 401(k). By definition you, the employee, are exposed to all the market risk. Exactly it means juicing the stock market, which the fed can do by lowering interest rates etc. > If you happen to reach retirement age in a down market, you're kinda just screwed. That's why you're supposed to allocate more of your money to bonds as you approach retirement.
- ivalm 7y ago
  State worker pensions are generally product of union negotiation.
- jagged-chisel 7y ago
  Those with pensions tend to be union members; the pension being a benefit insisted upon in negotiations between unions and their (government) employers. If a state declares bankruptcy, lists pensions as a debt, and the federal discharges the pension debt, the GOP can thumb their noses at unions in a very big way.
  - chrisseaton 7y ago
    > Those with pensions tend to be union members I still don't understand. Surely almost every professional has a pension, but few people are in unions.
    - Loughla 7y ago
      Very few people in the United States have pensions. Mainly pensions are available for state employees, or union members. And for that matter, state employees tend to be part of a union. Unions are responsible for pensions, and the only people who have held onto them as the 401k has taken over. Edit: Because I apparently can't reply to chriseaton below - 401k is defined contribution, you contribute $x which is a set amount and non-taxable. Pension is defined benefit; you receive $x, guaranteed, after x,y,z parameters are met (age, years experience, etc). They are not even slightly the same thing. Not even close.
      - chrisseaton 7y ago
        I think a 401(k) is a pension? Almost all companies offer a 401(k) for full-time employees.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
        danso 7y ago
        A 401(K) is not a pension. The latter is funded entirely by the employer.
hamandcheese 7y ago
Could the union strike (after the bankruptcy proceedings are complete) and force the state to take on new debt? Can states (or municipalities) not declare bankruptcy, and instead default on only the obligations they don't want to pay? That would be similar to how I as an individual can just stop paying one credit card but not the other. Or are those left holding the bag able to sue and force bankruptcy proceedings?

chrisseaton 7y ago

> The judge gets to decide which debts are paid, meaning that pensions are very likely going to be chopped, hurting union members. I don't understand this. What is the connection between pensions and union members?

ForHackernews 7y ago
Historically, pension benefits were one of the main benefits unions fought for (and won) so that their members could have an income in their old age and retire. Today, very few workers still have pensions, but the few that do tend to be those represented by a union. In many states, this includes government employees: teachers, firefighters, police, etc.
- chrisseaton 7y ago
  > Today, very few workers still have pensions I've never seen a professional job that didn't include a pension - certainly not in the tech industry.
  - wikibob 7y ago
    Are you in the USA? Pensions are defined benefit. That is, it is specified exactly how much money you will receive in retirement. A 401K retirement plan is not a pension. You save your own money and possibly an employer contribution, and you make your own investment decisions. The value goes up and down in accordance with what you invested in.
    - chrisseaton 7y ago
      > A 401K retirement plan is not a pension. Are we both talking about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/401(k) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/401(k)? "In the United States, a 401(k) plan is the tax-qualified, defined-contribution pension"
      - Loughla 7y ago
        Defined contribution (401k) is not the same as defined benefit (pension).
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
  - beefalo 7y ago
    Here have you seen a pension in the tech industry? 401ks are ubiquitous but no modern companies offer pensions
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - jgwil2 7y ago
    Why are you going all up and down this thread trying to pedantically show that people are using the term "pension" slightly differently to Wikipedia's definition? It's not contributing anything to the discussion.
    - chrisseaton 7y ago
      Well I just don’t get it. People say ‘nobody gets a pension anymore’ but a 401(k) is just a different type of pension. My defines benefit savings plans literally say ‘pension’ in the product names.
      - ryan93 7y ago
        The state pensions have no risk. They get a guaranteed payout regardless of stock market performance. The difference comes out of taxpayer pockets. With a 401k if the stock market crashes you are out of lock. The taxpayers won’t chip in the difference
- klipt 7y ago
  And everyone else has 401ks which also suffer in a crisis, but the federal government can't bail out red state 401ks without also helping blue state 401ks, so in that sense 401ks are safer than pensions.
  - ForHackernews 7y ago
    I don't even know what it would mean to "bail out" a 401(k). By definition you, the employee, are exposed to all the market risk. If you happen to reach retirement age in a down market, you're kinda just screwed. Should've made better investment choices 15 years ago. This is why traditional pensions were usually a better deal for most employees.
    - klipt 7y ago
      > I don't even know what it would mean to "bail out" a 401(k). By definition you, the employee, are exposed to all the market risk. Exactly it means juicing the stock market, which the fed can do by lowering interest rates etc. > If you happen to reach retirement age in a down market, you're kinda just screwed. That's why you're supposed to allocate more of your money to bonds as you approach retirement.
ivalm 7y ago
State worker pensions are generally product of union negotiation.
jagged-chisel 7y ago
Those with pensions tend to be union members; the pension being a benefit insisted upon in negotiations between unions and their (government) employers. If a state declares bankruptcy, lists pensions as a debt, and the federal discharges the pension debt, the GOP can thumb their noses at unions in a very big way.
- chrisseaton 7y ago
  > Those with pensions tend to be union members I still don't understand. Surely almost every professional has a pension, but few people are in unions.
  - Loughla 7y ago
    Very few people in the United States have pensions. Mainly pensions are available for state employees, or union members. And for that matter, state employees tend to be part of a union. Unions are responsible for pensions, and the only people who have held onto them as the 401k has taken over. Edit: Because I apparently can't reply to chriseaton below - 401k is defined contribution, you contribute $x which is a set amount and non-taxable. Pension is defined benefit; you receive $x, guaranteed, after x,y,z parameters are met (age, years experience, etc). They are not even slightly the same thing. Not even close.
    - chrisseaton 7y ago
      I think a 401(k) is a pension? Almost all companies offer a 401(k) for full-time employees.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - danso 7y ago
        A 401(K) is not a pension. The latter is funded entirely by the employer.

hamandcheese 7y ago

Could the union strike (after the bankruptcy proceedings are complete) and force the state to take on new debt? Can states (or municipalities) not declare bankruptcy, and instead default on only the obligations they don't want to pay? That would be similar to how I as an individual can just stop paying one credit card but not the other. Or are those left holding the bag able to sue and force bankruptcy proceedings?