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> Does "I didn't have to find a contractor to tear out the kitchen wall when a leak on the third floor got all the way down to my first floor apartment, nor did

> Does "I didn't have to find a contractor to tear out the kitchen wall when a leak on the third floor got all the way down to my first floor apartment, nor did I have to pay for them to do this, and could just keep on going to work as normal" count as value? How often does this happen, and how much does it cost? I can guarantee you your time is not worth this much and it is still less expensive and safer for you to buy a house than rent one. If you rent for 30 years, at the end of these 30 years you will have nothing and if anything happens, you'll be left in the streets. If you take a loan for 30 years, at the end you will have a roof above your head, for the rest of your life. The small amount of time you spend finding a contractor and cost of those infrequent leaks repairs represent nothing.

bmn__ 6y ago
> If you rent for 30 years, at the end of these 30 years you will have nothing That chestnut again. It makes me sad to see it on HN. It's just a dishonest comparison. The money saved by not paying back a bank loan plus interest goes into long term investment, not into consumables. In most places on the world, for the last 40 years, the renter comes ahead of the home-owner in spe in terms of total cost.
- wahern 6y ago
  > In most places on the world I presume the context is the United States where a typical loan requires no more than a 20% down payment, providing 4:1 non-recourse leverage, with 3-4% interest. Outside of home mortgages, that sort of sweet-heart financing is only available to the very wealthy. When you factor in retained equity, at the end of the day, unless mobility or liquidity is exceptionally important to you, buying absolutely makes sense for the vast majority of Americans who can afford it. The home mortgage interest tax deduction is just icing on the cake. That housing prices don't appreciate as much as the stock market is not dispositive. Now, once you already own a home, then of course the fact that the stock market provides higher returns matters for subsequent investment decisions. The calculus of residential ownership isn't nearly as favorable for non-owner-occupants. For small-time real estate investors banks offer you less leverage (3:1 or worse), higher interest rates, and your risk exposure is greater because you're purely speculating--whereas with owner-occupier you were presumably going to be living in that market, so you're only marginally speculating. The situation is different in many other parts of the world with different socioeconomic policies (e.g. expensive mortgages, high down payments) and real estate markets (e.g. more common for housing to depreciate in value), but that's irrelevant to the U.S. You can't say whether owning makes sense or not without accounting for all the opportunity costs, which can vary widely. But in the U.S., generally and historically, buying a home adds up. Maybe the U.S. is worse off for incentivizing homeownership, but it is what it is.

bmn__ 6y ago

> If you rent for 30 years, at the end of these 30 years you will have nothing That chestnut again. It makes me sad to see it on HN. It's just a dishonest comparison. The money saved by not paying back a bank loan plus interest goes into long term investment, not into consumables. In most places on the world, for the last 40 years, the renter comes ahead of the home-owner in spe in terms of total cost.

wahern 6y ago
> In most places on the world I presume the context is the United States where a typical loan requires no more than a 20% down payment, providing 4:1 non-recourse leverage, with 3-4% interest. Outside of home mortgages, that sort of sweet-heart financing is only available to the very wealthy. When you factor in retained equity, at the end of the day, unless mobility or liquidity is exceptionally important to you, buying absolutely makes sense for the vast majority of Americans who can afford it. The home mortgage interest tax deduction is just icing on the cake. That housing prices don't appreciate as much as the stock market is not dispositive. Now, once you already own a home, then of course the fact that the stock market provides higher returns matters for subsequent investment decisions. The calculus of residential ownership isn't nearly as favorable for non-owner-occupants. For small-time real estate investors banks offer you less leverage (3:1 or worse), higher interest rates, and your risk exposure is greater because you're purely speculating--whereas with owner-occupier you were presumably going to be living in that market, so you're only marginally speculating. The situation is different in many other parts of the world with different socioeconomic policies (e.g. expensive mortgages, high down payments) and real estate markets (e.g. more common for housing to depreciate in value), but that's irrelevant to the U.S. You can't say whether owning makes sense or not without accounting for all the opportunity costs, which can vary widely. But in the U.S., generally and historically, buying a home adds up. Maybe the U.S. is worse off for incentivizing homeownership, but it is what it is.