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I never said it was a good thing, its merely a statistic. > opportunity is very limited and unequally distributed Sorry, I don't subscribe to this idea. I ca

I never said it was a good thing, its merely a statistic. > opportunity is very limited and unequally distributed Sorry, I don't subscribe to this idea. I came from a blue collar family. Both parents work long hours to provide for our family. I was working when I was 12. I didn't own anything of value through HS or college. I worked several jobs to pay my way through college. I have lived a big chunk of my life below the poverty line. I didn't graduate in four years like most of my friends, but I was still able to get myself out of college, get a job and have been able to build a career out of almost nothing. "Shouting into a void of ignorance". Such prose from a person who probably was gifted a nice comfy life, trying to tell the guy who had to bust his ass for everything he has that I'm ignorant? Now that's something. Feel to take more of my fake internet points away, I don't care.

entropea 7y ago
>I came from a blue collar family. Both parents work long hours to provide for our family. I was working when I was 12. I didn't own anything of value through HS or college. I worked several jobs to pay my way through college. I have lived a big chunk of my life below the poverty line. I didn't graduate in four years like most of my friends, but I was still able to get myself out of college, get a job and have been able to build a career out of almost nothing. That's completely anecdotal, but I experienced nearly the same. I agree with the above poster that opportunity is limited and unequally distributed, and I would say you and I experienced a good bit of luck....not to minimize your struggles. USA has a very low class & income mobility [1]. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/aparnamathur/2018/07/16/the-u-s-does-poorly-on-yet-another-metric-of-economic-mobility/#6d40562a6a7b https://www.forbes.com/sites/aparnamathur/2018/07/16/the-u-s...
misun78 7y ago
I have reported the commentator above if it helps. Last thing we need is virtue signaling jerks on this site, they can head over to their favorite poltical echo chamber forum instead.
Frondo 7y ago
Only one remark: "tell the guy ... that I'm ignorant" You can have a wealth of first-hand experience but that doesn't mean it translates to opportunities or behaviors of groups. So yes, you can be ignorant. As someone else pointed out, class mobility is extremely low and income inequality is extremely high in the US. For your situation, the plural of anecdote isn't data.
mullingitover 7y ago
Sharing anecdotes about pulling yourself up by your bootstraps doesn't change the fact that the biggest predictors of your life outcomes are your parents incomes and your zip code.
- JoeAltmaier 7y ago
  {citation}
  - mullingitover 7y ago
    "Parental Income Has Outsized Influence on Children’s Economic Future" https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/about/news-room/press-releases-and-statements/2015/07/23/parental-income-has-outsized-influence-on-childrens-economic-future https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/about/news-room/press-releases-... "Your ZIP Code Might Determine How Long You Live—and the Difference Could Be Decades" https://time.com/5608268/zip-code-health/ https://time.com/5608268/zip-code-health/ "New U.S. Census Bureau Research Maps the Roots of Social Mobility" https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2018/opportunity-atlas.html https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2018/opportun...
alexilliamson 7y ago
The history of America is the wealthy allowing just enough blue collar folk to make it big, so that the bootstrap narrative keeps propogating. The "I did it, others can too" is the fuel that keeps the facade of social mobility alive and strong.
fzeroracer 7y ago
From one person who was born into poverty to another, I'll gladly call you ignorant because my version of your story involved me taking out a loan against my personal health in order to take a risk that either could've put me above water or doomed me. I'm missing a lot of my teeth but it got me out of poverty. Do you think that was a good trade? Do you think it's a good thing that people have to make such decisions to survive?
- Frondo 7y ago
  I think this is the crux of what drives me mad with these personal anecdotes of struggle. Is this the best we can do as a society, that a few poor people, through work and luck, can become less poor? What's the point of these stories, beyond just sharing one's personal experience? That the society we've got here is the best we can do?
  - tekknik 7y ago
    because that drive to pull ones self up is what built the US into what it is today. without that drive what is the point of being more than what you are today? the struggle to be something more is literally the driving factor behind all of existence. the opportunity is out there for most people if they look hard enough. that said there are definitely some who need societal help to pull them out of a rut but it is most definitely not even close to a majority. like others in this thread, i too came from a family living below the poverty line yet somehow turned that into a career despite not even having a degree. opportunity to me seems plentiful
    - Frondo 6y ago
      What built the US into what it is today was its incredible amount of untapped resources, followed by military dominance and tapping into other countries' resources. Keeping people impoverished was (and is) not necessary for that.
      - tekknik 6y ago
vasillevski 7y ago
> I never said it was a good thing, its merely a statistic. You’re correct, you didn’t. You did, however, post it as a response to a statistic that highlighted inequality in stock ownership. That response could only be interpreted as justifying that inequality because the upper class pays the majority of taxes, while the lower effectively contributes nothing. Yet you fail to realize that the lower class suffers a much larger overall tax burden relative to percentage of income. This is why you were downvoted, but not by me. In fact, this is my first comment on an internet discussion ever. I’m not trying to take away your “internet points”. > Sorry, I don't subscribe to this idea. You’re entitled to your opinion, but it doesn’t make it true. You suffer from survivorship bias. There’s plenty of sound research that dispels the narrative of abundant economic mobility. Notice I didn’t say there is no opportunity, but limited and unequally distributed. To your final point, I apologize if I came off as snarky. I am a first generation, ESL immigrant. My life, while relatively comfy by global standards, has been anything but by US standards. I hope you’ll forgive my pointed prose, and realize that being hardworking and ignorant are not mutually exclusive. There are many things I’m ignorant to, and when it’s pointed out, I try not to be personally offended. Instead, I approach it as a learning opportunity. Ignorance is offensive when it is willful and deliberate.

entropea 7y ago

>I came from a blue collar family. Both parents work long hours to provide for our family. I was working when I was 12. I didn't own anything of value through HS or college. I worked several jobs to pay my way through college. I have lived a big chunk of my life below the poverty line. I didn't graduate in four years like most of my friends, but I was still able to get myself out of college, get a job and have been able to build a career out of almost nothing. That's completely anecdotal, but I experienced nearly the same. I agree with the above poster that opportunity is limited and unequally distributed, and I would say you and I experienced a good bit of luck....not to minimize your struggles. USA has a very low class & income mobility [1]. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/aparnamathur/2018/07/16/the-u-s-does-poorly-on-yet-another-metric-of-economic-mobility/#6d40562a6a7b https://www.forbes.com/sites/aparnamathur/2018/07/16/the-u-s...

misun78 7y ago

I have reported the commentator above if it helps. Last thing we need is virtue signaling jerks on this site, they can head over to their favorite poltical echo chamber forum instead.

Frondo 7y ago

Only one remark: "tell the guy ... that I'm ignorant" You can have a wealth of first-hand experience but that doesn't mean it translates to opportunities or behaviors of groups. So yes, you can be ignorant. As someone else pointed out, class mobility is extremely low and income inequality is extremely high in the US. For your situation, the plural of anecdote isn't data.

mullingitover 7y ago

Sharing anecdotes about pulling yourself up by your bootstraps doesn't change the fact that the biggest predictors of your life outcomes are your parents incomes and your zip code.

JoeAltmaier 7y ago
{citation}
- mullingitover 7y ago
  "Parental Income Has Outsized Influence on Children’s Economic Future" https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/about/news-room/press-releases-and-statements/2015/07/23/parental-income-has-outsized-influence-on-childrens-economic-future https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/about/news-room/press-releases-... "Your ZIP Code Might Determine How Long You Live—and the Difference Could Be Decades" https://time.com/5608268/zip-code-health/ https://time.com/5608268/zip-code-health/ "New U.S. Census Bureau Research Maps the Roots of Social Mobility" https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2018/opportunity-atlas.html https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2018/opportun...

alexilliamson 7y ago

The history of America is the wealthy allowing just enough blue collar folk to make it big, so that the bootstrap narrative keeps propogating. The "I did it, others can too" is the fuel that keeps the facade of social mobility alive and strong.

fzeroracer 7y ago

From one person who was born into poverty to another, I'll gladly call you ignorant because my version of your story involved me taking out a loan against my personal health in order to take a risk that either could've put me above water or doomed me. I'm missing a lot of my teeth but it got me out of poverty. Do you think that was a good trade? Do you think it's a good thing that people have to make such decisions to survive?

Frondo 7y ago
I think this is the crux of what drives me mad with these personal anecdotes of struggle. Is this the best we can do as a society, that a few poor people, through work and luck, can become less poor? What's the point of these stories, beyond just sharing one's personal experience? That the society we've got here is the best we can do?
- tekknik 7y ago
  because that drive to pull ones self up is what built the US into what it is today. without that drive what is the point of being more than what you are today? the struggle to be something more is literally the driving factor behind all of existence. the opportunity is out there for most people if they look hard enough. that said there are definitely some who need societal help to pull them out of a rut but it is most definitely not even close to a majority. like others in this thread, i too came from a family living below the poverty line yet somehow turned that into a career despite not even having a degree. opportunity to me seems plentiful
  - Frondo 6y ago
    What built the US into what it is today was its incredible amount of untapped resources, followed by military dominance and tapping into other countries' resources. Keeping people impoverished was (and is) not necessary for that.
    - tekknik 6y ago

vasillevski 7y ago

> I never said it was a good thing, its merely a statistic. You’re correct, you didn’t. You did, however, post it as a response to a statistic that highlighted inequality in stock ownership. That response could only be interpreted as justifying that inequality because the upper class pays the majority of taxes, while the lower effectively contributes nothing. Yet you fail to realize that the lower class suffers a much larger overall tax burden relative to percentage of income. This is why you were downvoted, but not by me. In fact, this is my first comment on an internet discussion ever. I’m not trying to take away your “internet points”. > Sorry, I don't subscribe to this idea. You’re entitled to your opinion, but it doesn’t make it true. You suffer from survivorship bias. There’s plenty of sound research that dispels the narrative of abundant economic mobility. Notice I didn’t say there is no opportunity, but limited and unequally distributed. To your final point, I apologize if I came off as snarky. I am a first generation, ESL immigrant. My life, while relatively comfy by global standards, has been anything but by US standards. I hope you’ll forgive my pointed prose, and realize that being hardworking and ignorant are not mutually exclusive. There are many things I’m ignorant to, and when it’s pointed out, I try not to be personally offended. Instead, I approach it as a learning opportunity. Ignorance is offensive when it is willful and deliberate.