6 ms·

No, we can't let them fail, that'd be capitalism!

joyj2nd 7y ago
Many major national carriers have national importance. So, no, they won't go bankrupt. Be it Lufthansa, Air France, Air China, or whatever. Airlines like Ryanair and Wizz air might be different.
- vinay427 7y ago
  The difference is there isn't a predominant American legacy airline. AA is only marginally larger than Delta or United. Personally, having never lived in their hub or focus cities I have rarely ever flown them, and it's conceivable that the national value of LH or AF to their countries is greater than AA.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- gumby 7y ago
  Curious what you mean by “national importance?” Do you mean ego/national pride, or that without a state provided carrier there would be no flights (unlikely for a Germany or Belgium, but possible for, say, the Marshall Islands or Togo)? Or that there is some sort of treaty-mandated interlink that requires a designated flag carrier (I know this last case was true decades ago, but I’m not sure the US even has one any more)?
  - joyj2nd 7y ago
    Well, a country with a decent population size and a decent economy has to rely on air transport. Just now many countries flew out their citizens for example. As far as I know, Lufthansa, like some other airlines, have a government owned golden share. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_share https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_share In fact, if I remember right, an EU based airline is not even allowed to be owned by more than 50% of non EU share holders.
    - gumby 7y ago
      FWIW Australia is coordinating flights via foreign airlines in addition to QANTAS. In fact United is running more flights to AUS than QANTAS. LH’s golden share was sold off in the 1990s (that’s in the article).
  - econcon 7y ago
    It's about control. During bad time like this Covid time, to haul cargo of national importance like masks or ventilators, passenger airline can be used if military one proves insufficient. And how many countries will allow others military cargo planes in their border?
    - gumby 7y ago
      > And how many countries will allow others military cargo planes in their border? In practice: most, including the US. How do you think that Russian aid was delivered last month? Not on a commercial flight.
- new2628 7y ago
  Never mind that several smaller airlines of national importance went bankrupt in recent years because of EU regulation against state aid. Now that the big ones need it, the regulation is out the window.
  - ketzu 7y ago
    Or it's because of special circumstances and we can stop pretending it's not.
    - new2628 7y ago
      Sure, nobody pretends it is not a special situation. It is still deeply unfair that when you need a bailout I don't allow it, when I need it, it is a special situation so it is OK.
- Symbiote 7y ago
  Several European countries allowed their former national airlines to go bankrupt or be sold to foreign owners. Swissair, Sabene (Belgium) and Olympic (Greece) went bankrupt, I'm sure there are more. Air France and KLM (Netherlands) merged a while ago, as did British Airways and Iberia (Spain). Ryanair is Europe's largest airline by passenger numbers.
BalinKing 7y ago
The fact that the shutdowns are government-enforced is where the "it's capitalism" argument breaks down. The market's no longer free due to the government, so it makes sense that they would then try to offset the corresponding economic damage.
- hanniabu 7y ago
  There will always be excuses. At the end of the day it's always capitalized profits, socialized losses.

Many major national carriers have national importance. So, no, they won't go bankrupt. Be it Lufthansa, Air France, Air China, or whatever. Airlines like Ryanair and Wizz air might be different.

vinay427 7y ago
The difference is there isn't a predominant American legacy airline. AA is only marginally larger than Delta or United. Personally, having never lived in their hub or focus cities I have rarely ever flown them, and it's conceivable that the national value of LH or AF to their countries is greater than AA.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
gumby 7y ago
Curious what you mean by “national importance?” Do you mean ego/national pride, or that without a state provided carrier there would be no flights (unlikely for a Germany or Belgium, but possible for, say, the Marshall Islands or Togo)? Or that there is some sort of treaty-mandated interlink that requires a designated flag carrier (I know this last case was true decades ago, but I’m not sure the US even has one any more)?
- joyj2nd 7y ago
  Well, a country with a decent population size and a decent economy has to rely on air transport. Just now many countries flew out their citizens for example. As far as I know, Lufthansa, like some other airlines, have a government owned golden share. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_share https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_share In fact, if I remember right, an EU based airline is not even allowed to be owned by more than 50% of non EU share holders.
  - gumby 7y ago
    FWIW Australia is coordinating flights via foreign airlines in addition to QANTAS. In fact United is running more flights to AUS than QANTAS. LH’s golden share was sold off in the 1990s (that’s in the article).
- econcon 7y ago
  It's about control. During bad time like this Covid time, to haul cargo of national importance like masks or ventilators, passenger airline can be used if military one proves insufficient. And how many countries will allow others military cargo planes in their border?
  - gumby 7y ago
    > And how many countries will allow others military cargo planes in their border? In practice: most, including the US. How do you think that Russian aid was delivered last month? Not on a commercial flight.
new2628 7y ago
Never mind that several smaller airlines of national importance went bankrupt in recent years because of EU regulation against state aid. Now that the big ones need it, the regulation is out the window.
- ketzu 7y ago
  Or it's because of special circumstances and we can stop pretending it's not.
  - new2628 7y ago
    Sure, nobody pretends it is not a special situation. It is still deeply unfair that when you need a bailout I don't allow it, when I need it, it is a special situation so it is OK.
Symbiote 7y ago
Several European countries allowed their former national airlines to go bankrupt or be sold to foreign owners. Swissair, Sabene (Belgium) and Olympic (Greece) went bankrupt, I'm sure there are more. Air France and KLM (Netherlands) merged a while ago, as did British Airways and Iberia (Spain). Ryanair is Europe's largest airline by passenger numbers.

BalinKing 7y ago

The fact that the shutdowns are government-enforced is where the "it's capitalism" argument breaks down. The market's no longer free due to the government, so it makes sense that they would then try to offset the corresponding economic damage.

hanniabu 7y ago
There will always be excuses. At the end of the day it's always capitalized profits, socialized losses.