8 ms·

The only social unrest that has happened so far have been the protests about wanting to lift or ease restrictions on states, and they were widely panned as a bu

The only social unrest that has happened so far have been the protests about wanting to lift or ease restrictions on states, and they were widely panned as a bunch of nutjobs. It's easy to look down on people lower on the socioeconomic ladder. They're still human beings. They've been given this raw deal: For the greater good, you will now give up your job for an indefinite period of time, with no prospect of finding like employment elsewhere. You have no choice, and if you refuse, you are a horrible person and in some cases you may face civil and criminal consequences. Injustice isn't any less unjust, because the recipients are somehow in a group one perceives as deplorable. Principles of justice and human rights are universal. This was MLK's ideological point in the Civil Rights movement. Adherence to this principle is how I distinguish pseudo-activists who just want power and attention from those who really have justice at heart: Are the principles applied to everyone, or just to whomever it's convenient?

cultus 6y ago
The folks participating in the protest are not at all lower on the socioeconomic latter, but predominately middle class. Black Americans, who tend to be poorer and less secure, support the lockdown at a higher rate than whites or other racial groups [0] (at least in Florida). Whites have the least support for a lockdown, but most still oppose reopening. Lastly, at least some of the protests were funded by the DeVos family [1]. [0] https://poll.qu.edu/florida/release-detail?ReleaseID=3659 https://poll.qu.edu/florida/release-detail?ReleaseID=3659 [1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/apr/26/devos-family-michigan-protest-rightwing-donors https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/apr/26/devos-family...
- misun78 6y ago
  Building up socio-economic status is a straw man point here given how widespread the effects of this downturn are. It could be that parts of the middle class that are protesting may have lost their jobs or businesses and the stimulus checks don’t offset that as much as it would for lower income folks.
  - kyuudou 6y ago
    And our middle-class is typically just a few, if not just one, paycheck away from abject poverty.
- q92z8oeif 6y ago
  Fact that US still have to break down so much into racial cohorts in polls is weird. And offer nothing of value other than the generalizations like "who tend to be poorer" that doesn't help the discussion nor analysis. What do you do with this information in this context? How about breaking down by religion or something else that at least points to what kind of media/message the group is more exposed to? or something that hints at extraneous interests, like homeowners or not. There are so much better ways to break down this data.
  - vinay427 6y ago
    > How about breaking down by religion or something else that at least points to what kind of media/message the group is more exposed to? I'm an American that fits into neither of these groups but nearly everyone I know does, so from my third party perspective I think you might be underestimating how different the sources, messaging, and conversations are between white and black Americans on average. That being said, I think it is still vastly overused in polls, and is perhaps a self-fulfilling prophecy to some degree.
  - cultus 6y ago
    Due to the history of the US, race is highly determinate to culture and socioeconomic status. It's a very good proxy for to cut across all sorts of differences. For example, you mentioned home owners. Guess which race has very few of those? I would have preferred to see a poll based on income, but race is still a decent proxy for that.
    - q92z8oeif 6y ago
      "decent proxy" is a gross generalization that depends on your deeply set pre-conceptions.
      - cultus 6y ago
        It's a statistical fact. It's not racist to acknowledge that racial minorities in the US are disadvantaged.
  - deleted 6y ago
harikb 6y ago
> one perceives as deplorable There is no reason to bring that reference in an otherwise non-political discussion.
- GenerocUsername 6y ago
  Triggered
- stcredzero 6y ago
  There is no reason to bring that reference in an otherwise non-political discussion. It's hard to separate socioeconomic differentials from politics. And I specifically use deplorable to call out the political excesses of my own accustomed "tribe."
  - krapp 6y ago
    >And I specifically use deplorable to call out the political excesses of my own accustomed "tribe." And, either purposely or naively, you're misconstruing the context and scope of a single quote as if you were a part of the other "tribe." The "basket of deplorables" comment is widely and incorrectly assumed to be an expression of elitist disdain by "the left" for all rural white males, all Trump supporters, or everyone of lower socioeconomic class, when it rather explicitly referred to the - and I'm paraphrasing almost directly from the quote here - "racists, sexists, homophobes, xenophobes, Islamophobes" who took over Trump's base and steered it in an extremist direction. In other words, people who should be considered deplorable. It may not have been a precisely worded criticism but it was an accurate one.
    - stcredzero 6y ago
      And, either purposely or naively, you're misconstruing the context and scope of a single quote as if you were a part of the other "tribe." The "basket of deplorables" comment is widely and incorrectly assumed to be an expression of elitist disdain by "the left" for all rural white males, all Trump supporters, or everyone of lower socioeconomic class, when it rather explicitly referred to the - and I'm paraphrasing almost directly from the quote here - "racists, sexists, homophobes, xenophobes, Islamophobes" who took over Trump's base and steered it in an extremist direction. In other words, people who should be considered deplorable. It may not have been a precisely worded criticism but it was an accurate one. Thanks. I have absolutely no reason to reply to any of that. I know the following from personal experience as a person of color, as a not completely hetero-normative person, and as someone who lived in the on-campus house of an organization that had non-gender specific bathrooms in the 1980's. As I mentioned elsewhere, tone-deafness and lack of self-awareness are often symptoms of someone having lost the ability to view others -- all others -- as fully equal in basic human being status. Left as an exercise to the reader: Who exactly am I calling out here?
kilroy123 6y ago
I completely agree with you, but... How about don't vote in leaders that only care about helping out their rich buddies then? The Scandinavian countries have moved to pay all payrolls to keep people paid during all this madness, instead of just bailing out large debt holders.
- dlkf 6y ago
  It's tough when your country isn't much of a democracy. A major difference between Scandinavia and the US/Canada/many others is that proportional representation plays a much greater role in the electoral system here.
  - stcredzero 6y ago
    It's a good thing, when a republic is constructed so that a minority still has a voice. One might perceive them as the "wrong" minority today, in the current context. In the future, they might well be the "correct" minority. (That said, I think Sweden of all places in the west, have had the best, most sane reaction to the pandemic.)
    - Mc_Big_G 6y ago
      What minority are you even talking about?
      - stcredzero 6y ago
        What minority are you even talking about Any of them. Some of them, I'm in. Some of them, I'll never be in. The principle is universal: A just society protects the minority. Any of them.
        losteric 6y ago
        Any of them? Including groups that want to oppress others?
mcphage 6y ago
> It's easy to look down on people lower on the socioeconomic ladder. They're still human beings. They've been given this raw deal: For the greater good, you will now give up your job for an indefinite period of time, with no prospect of finding like employment elsewhere. You have no choice, and if you refuse, you are a horrible person and in some cases you may face civil and criminal consequences. The man in front of the protest to ease restrictions in my mid-sized city was a wealthy local real estate magnate.
- stcredzero 6y ago
  The man in front of the protest to ease restrictions in my mid-sized city was a wealthy local real estate magnate. That still doesn't change the equation for those who aren't real estate magnates and were living paycheck to paycheck before the crisis. You either listen to all people and meet them where they're at, or you give fuel to demagogues. (Who might be rich magnates.)
  - mcphage 6y ago
    It definitely doesn't, but it does change the tenor and content of those protests.
    - stcredzero 6y ago
      it does change the tenor and content of those protests. If people who shouldn't have political power gain it by listening to the neglected, the proper course of action isn't to denigrate the people. Take back that power by listening.
      - mcphage 6y ago
        > If people who shouldn't have political power gain it by listening to the neglected, the proper course of action isn't to denigrate the people. He didn't get it by listening to the neglected. He got it by spending money. The protests in my city, like in most places, were primarily people saying "I want people to work for me!" and not "I want to work!". Also had some confederate flags thrown in, because why not. > Take back that power by listening. If I were to listen, I would hear that people don't want to be forced to choose between survival and health.
astronautjones 6y ago
> It's easy to look down on people lower on the socioeconomic ladder. They're still human beings. They've been given this raw deal: For the greater good, you will now give up your job for an indefinite period of time, with no prospect of finding like employment elsewhere. You have no choice, and if you refuse, you are a horrible person and in some cases you may face civil and criminal consequences. Lots of these people (and a lot of the trumpy, NRA class at large) are bourgeoise, fwiw
- stcredzero 6y ago
  Lots of these people (and a lot of the trumpy, NRA class at large) are bourgeoise, fwiw Well, for one thing, in that subset there are still people getting a raw deal. For another thing, it's a generally bad thing when people start formulating their political equations or thoughts of who's worthy to be listened to based on group stereotypes. "People like that," is just another form of, "those people," or "them." I've been on the receiving end of stuff like that all my life, as being one of a few classes of minorities, some of it from people who might be characterized as "the trumpy, NRA class at large." Ultimately, we're all individuals, and we're all human beings. Beware of people who rail against a group, then have you identify them by outward signs. Be especially wary, when those people start claiming to know the presence of bad thoughts in others, such that they "don't deserve" this or that. Be especially wary when the "don't deserve" starts extending to basic human rights. In 2020, be triply wary if you are, in effect, being asked to think badly of and ignore the human rights of one particular group -- in the name of justice and human rights.
mbgerring 6y ago
> It's easy to look down on people lower on the socioeconomic ladder. That's not who's protesting with assault rifles demanding that their hairdresser show up to work. People who are "lower on the socioeconomic ladder" are the ones going on strike for PPE, hazard pay and sick leave that the media are dutifully ignoring.
- stcredzero 6y ago
  That's not who's protesting with assault rifles demanding that their hairdresser show up to work Again, it's easy to paint a group as a "type" to justify disregarding their viewpoint. There are opportunists at any large protest. Ultimately, the protest is a collection of individuals, each with their own story. People who are "lower on the socioeconomic ladder" are the ones going on strike for PPE, hazard pay and sick leave that the media are dutifully ignoring. Noted!
JoeAltmaier 6y ago
Lots is being done to lessen the effect on the lower socioeconomic ladder. My state has a $600/week stipend for all those unemployed. In many cases this is more than they earned while employed. Sort of a temporary "basic income". So its unevenly applied (not in every state). That's an issue to bring up with your state representative.
kazagistar 6y ago
Those protester people were to a large extent rich employers who wanted to start earning on the backs of others again, or benefiting from that work with normal service availability. There isn't a lot of rawness in that deal, only privilege, and their request was one that hurts others to maintain that privilege.
ryandrake 6y ago
It would be much harder to "look down" on the protestors if their protests were backed by sanity. For every sign saying "I need to work to feed my family," you see 20 saying: * Coronavirus is a hoax! * Fake nurses! * 5G cellphones cause coronavirus! * Impeach Bill Gates! * Vaccines are poison! * Social Distancing is Communism! * Freedom!! There are reasonable arguments against the temporary shutdown, but the protesters are not part of that reasonable conversation.
- stcredzero 6y ago
  For every sign saying "I need to work to feed my family," you see 20 saying... Ask yourself this: Why is the media playing up those fringer crazies, and not covering the very poignant, socially relevant, and human angle of "I need to work to feed my family"? Then go and look up Manufacturing Consent. Here's how propaganda often happens in the West: Emotional manipulation is better than outright ham-handed Pravda-esque censorship. BTW, you seem to have watched the same "All Gas No Brakes" YouTube video of the Sacramento protests I did. You name the very same nutcase signs as appeared in the video. There's part of your answer right there: If it bleeds it leads. Nutcase signs are easy to get viral sharing out of. They tick the humor and outrage buttons all at the same time. Freedom!! This is a good thing. If someone tries to associate freedom with bad people, it's because they want all the power for their own tribe. Note this quote from a cousin comment: "People who are 'lower on the socioeconomic ladder' are the ones going on strike for PPE, hazard pay and sick leave that the media are dutifully ignoring." Please, ask yourself why the media are dutifully ignoring certain things.
  - ryandrake 6y ago
    Complaints of media manipulation and conspiracy are also a longstanding, standard element of the fringe's message. When your message is strong and supportable, you want a camera and microphone pointed at you. When your message doesn't make any sense, then media attention is always painted as mean and biased. "Freedom" Every protest in the USA, no matter where it sits on the moral or political spectrums, tries to hitch its wagon to "Freedom" in some way. It's become a word you just paint on a sign when you can't think of something to actually be complaining about.

cultus 6y ago

The folks participating in the protest are not at all lower on the socioeconomic latter, but predominately middle class. Black Americans, who tend to be poorer and less secure, support the lockdown at a higher rate than whites or other racial groups [0] (at least in Florida). Whites have the least support for a lockdown, but most still oppose reopening. Lastly, at least some of the protests were funded by the DeVos family [1]. [0] https://poll.qu.edu/florida/release-detail?ReleaseID=3659 https://poll.qu.edu/florida/release-detail?ReleaseID=3659 [1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/apr/26/devos-family-michigan-protest-rightwing-donors https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/apr/26/devos-family...

misun78 6y ago
Building up socio-economic status is a straw man point here given how widespread the effects of this downturn are. It could be that parts of the middle class that are protesting may have lost their jobs or businesses and the stimulus checks don’t offset that as much as it would for lower income folks.
- kyuudou 6y ago
  And our middle-class is typically just a few, if not just one, paycheck away from abject poverty.
q92z8oeif 6y ago
Fact that US still have to break down so much into racial cohorts in polls is weird. And offer nothing of value other than the generalizations like "who tend to be poorer" that doesn't help the discussion nor analysis. What do you do with this information in this context? How about breaking down by religion or something else that at least points to what kind of media/message the group is more exposed to? or something that hints at extraneous interests, like homeowners or not. There are so much better ways to break down this data.
- vinay427 6y ago
  > How about breaking down by religion or something else that at least points to what kind of media/message the group is more exposed to? I'm an American that fits into neither of these groups but nearly everyone I know does, so from my third party perspective I think you might be underestimating how different the sources, messaging, and conversations are between white and black Americans on average. That being said, I think it is still vastly overused in polls, and is perhaps a self-fulfilling prophecy to some degree.
- cultus 6y ago
  Due to the history of the US, race is highly determinate to culture and socioeconomic status. It's a very good proxy for to cut across all sorts of differences. For example, you mentioned home owners. Guess which race has very few of those? I would have preferred to see a poll based on income, but race is still a decent proxy for that.
  - q92z8oeif 6y ago
    "decent proxy" is a gross generalization that depends on your deeply set pre-conceptions.
    - cultus 6y ago
      It's a statistical fact. It's not racist to acknowledge that racial minorities in the US are disadvantaged.
- deleted 6y ago

harikb 6y ago

> one perceives as deplorable There is no reason to bring that reference in an otherwise non-political discussion.

GenerocUsername 6y ago
Triggered
stcredzero 6y ago
There is no reason to bring that reference in an otherwise non-political discussion. It's hard to separate socioeconomic differentials from politics. And I specifically use deplorable to call out the political excesses of my own accustomed "tribe."
- krapp 6y ago
  >And I specifically use deplorable to call out the political excesses of my own accustomed "tribe." And, either purposely or naively, you're misconstruing the context and scope of a single quote as if you were a part of the other "tribe." The "basket of deplorables" comment is widely and incorrectly assumed to be an expression of elitist disdain by "the left" for all rural white males, all Trump supporters, or everyone of lower socioeconomic class, when it rather explicitly referred to the - and I'm paraphrasing almost directly from the quote here - "racists, sexists, homophobes, xenophobes, Islamophobes" who took over Trump's base and steered it in an extremist direction. In other words, people who should be considered deplorable. It may not have been a precisely worded criticism but it was an accurate one.
  - stcredzero 6y ago
    And, either purposely or naively, you're misconstruing the context and scope of a single quote as if you were a part of the other "tribe." The "basket of deplorables" comment is widely and incorrectly assumed to be an expression of elitist disdain by "the left" for all rural white males, all Trump supporters, or everyone of lower socioeconomic class, when it rather explicitly referred to the - and I'm paraphrasing almost directly from the quote here - "racists, sexists, homophobes, xenophobes, Islamophobes" who took over Trump's base and steered it in an extremist direction. In other words, people who should be considered deplorable. It may not have been a precisely worded criticism but it was an accurate one. Thanks. I have absolutely no reason to reply to any of that. I know the following from personal experience as a person of color, as a not completely hetero-normative person, and as someone who lived in the on-campus house of an organization that had non-gender specific bathrooms in the 1980's. As I mentioned elsewhere, tone-deafness and lack of self-awareness are often symptoms of someone having lost the ability to view others -- all others -- as fully equal in basic human being status. Left as an exercise to the reader: Who exactly am I calling out here?

kilroy123 6y ago

I completely agree with you, but... How about don't vote in leaders that only care about helping out their rich buddies then? The Scandinavian countries have moved to pay all payrolls to keep people paid during all this madness, instead of just bailing out large debt holders.

dlkf 6y ago
It's tough when your country isn't much of a democracy. A major difference between Scandinavia and the US/Canada/many others is that proportional representation plays a much greater role in the electoral system here.
- stcredzero 6y ago
  It's a good thing, when a republic is constructed so that a minority still has a voice. One might perceive them as the "wrong" minority today, in the current context. In the future, they might well be the "correct" minority. (That said, I think Sweden of all places in the west, have had the best, most sane reaction to the pandemic.)
  - Mc_Big_G 6y ago
    What minority are you even talking about?
    - stcredzero 6y ago
      What minority are you even talking about Any of them. Some of them, I'm in. Some of them, I'll never be in. The principle is universal: A just society protects the minority. Any of them.
      - losteric 6y ago
        Any of them? Including groups that want to oppress others?

mcphage 6y ago

> It's easy to look down on people lower on the socioeconomic ladder. They're still human beings. They've been given this raw deal: For the greater good, you will now give up your job for an indefinite period of time, with no prospect of finding like employment elsewhere. You have no choice, and if you refuse, you are a horrible person and in some cases you may face civil and criminal consequences. The man in front of the protest to ease restrictions in my mid-sized city was a wealthy local real estate magnate.

stcredzero 6y ago
The man in front of the protest to ease restrictions in my mid-sized city was a wealthy local real estate magnate. That still doesn't change the equation for those who aren't real estate magnates and were living paycheck to paycheck before the crisis. You either listen to all people and meet them where they're at, or you give fuel to demagogues. (Who might be rich magnates.)
- mcphage 6y ago
  It definitely doesn't, but it does change the tenor and content of those protests.
  - stcredzero 6y ago
    it does change the tenor and content of those protests. If people who shouldn't have political power gain it by listening to the neglected, the proper course of action isn't to denigrate the people. Take back that power by listening.
    - mcphage 6y ago
      > If people who shouldn't have political power gain it by listening to the neglected, the proper course of action isn't to denigrate the people. He didn't get it by listening to the neglected. He got it by spending money. The protests in my city, like in most places, were primarily people saying "I want people to work for me!" and not "I want to work!". Also had some confederate flags thrown in, because why not. > Take back that power by listening. If I were to listen, I would hear that people don't want to be forced to choose between survival and health.

astronautjones 6y ago

> It's easy to look down on people lower on the socioeconomic ladder. They're still human beings. They've been given this raw deal: For the greater good, you will now give up your job for an indefinite period of time, with no prospect of finding like employment elsewhere. You have no choice, and if you refuse, you are a horrible person and in some cases you may face civil and criminal consequences. Lots of these people (and a lot of the trumpy, NRA class at large) are bourgeoise, fwiw

stcredzero 6y ago
Lots of these people (and a lot of the trumpy, NRA class at large) are bourgeoise, fwiw Well, for one thing, in that subset there are still people getting a raw deal. For another thing, it's a generally bad thing when people start formulating their political equations or thoughts of who's worthy to be listened to based on group stereotypes. "People like that," is just another form of, "those people," or "them." I've been on the receiving end of stuff like that all my life, as being one of a few classes of minorities, some of it from people who might be characterized as "the trumpy, NRA class at large." Ultimately, we're all individuals, and we're all human beings. Beware of people who rail against a group, then have you identify them by outward signs. Be especially wary, when those people start claiming to know the presence of bad thoughts in others, such that they "don't deserve" this or that. Be especially wary when the "don't deserve" starts extending to basic human rights. In 2020, be triply wary if you are, in effect, being asked to think badly of and ignore the human rights of one particular group -- in the name of justice and human rights.

mbgerring 6y ago

> It's easy to look down on people lower on the socioeconomic ladder. That's not who's protesting with assault rifles demanding that their hairdresser show up to work. People who are "lower on the socioeconomic ladder" are the ones going on strike for PPE, hazard pay and sick leave that the media are dutifully ignoring.

stcredzero 6y ago
That's not who's protesting with assault rifles demanding that their hairdresser show up to work Again, it's easy to paint a group as a "type" to justify disregarding their viewpoint. There are opportunists at any large protest. Ultimately, the protest is a collection of individuals, each with their own story. People who are "lower on the socioeconomic ladder" are the ones going on strike for PPE, hazard pay and sick leave that the media are dutifully ignoring. Noted!

JoeAltmaier 6y ago

Lots is being done to lessen the effect on the lower socioeconomic ladder. My state has a $600/week stipend for all those unemployed. In many cases this is more than they earned while employed. Sort of a temporary "basic income". So its unevenly applied (not in every state). That's an issue to bring up with your state representative.

kazagistar 6y ago

Those protester people were to a large extent rich employers who wanted to start earning on the backs of others again, or benefiting from that work with normal service availability. There isn't a lot of rawness in that deal, only privilege, and their request was one that hurts others to maintain that privilege.

ryandrake 6y ago

It would be much harder to "look down" on the protestors if their protests were backed by sanity. For every sign saying "I need to work to feed my family," you see 20 saying: * Coronavirus is a hoax! * Fake nurses! * 5G cellphones cause coronavirus! * Impeach Bill Gates! * Vaccines are poison! * Social Distancing is Communism! * Freedom!! There are reasonable arguments against the temporary shutdown, but the protesters are not part of that reasonable conversation.

stcredzero 6y ago
For every sign saying "I need to work to feed my family," you see 20 saying... Ask yourself this: Why is the media playing up those fringer crazies, and not covering the very poignant, socially relevant, and human angle of "I need to work to feed my family"? Then go and look up Manufacturing Consent. Here's how propaganda often happens in the West: Emotional manipulation is better than outright ham-handed Pravda-esque censorship. BTW, you seem to have watched the same "All Gas No Brakes" YouTube video of the Sacramento protests I did. You name the very same nutcase signs as appeared in the video. There's part of your answer right there: If it bleeds it leads. Nutcase signs are easy to get viral sharing out of. They tick the humor and outrage buttons all at the same time. Freedom!! This is a good thing. If someone tries to associate freedom with bad people, it's because they want all the power for their own tribe. Note this quote from a cousin comment: "People who are 'lower on the socioeconomic ladder' are the ones going on strike for PPE, hazard pay and sick leave that the media are dutifully ignoring." Please, ask yourself why the media are dutifully ignoring certain things.
- ryandrake 6y ago
  Complaints of media manipulation and conspiracy are also a longstanding, standard element of the fringe's message. When your message is strong and supportable, you want a camera and microphone pointed at you. When your message doesn't make any sense, then media attention is always painted as mean and biased. "Freedom" Every protest in the USA, no matter where it sits on the moral or political spectrums, tries to hitch its wagon to "Freedom" in some way. It's become a word you just paint on a sign when you can't think of something to actually be complaining about.