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> My question is how much, if any, social unrest this will lead to. There is deep rot at the heart of the American system, and something is going to have to gi

by _bxg1 7y ago

> My question is how much, if any, social unrest this will lead to. There is deep rot at the heart of the American system, and something is going to have to give. The economy has been broken for the lower 50% for a long time now. This course is unsustainable. I try not to get explicitly political on here, but Bernie Sanders was, as far as I can see, our last shot at reversing the trend from within the current system. He is the only person on Capitol Hill with the motivation to make the real changes that desperately need making. Joe Biden will just pretend the problem doesn't exist for another four years. Trump, as a leader, is just an agent of chaos with no ideals and no plan. I can't totally blame people for taking a chance on that over the continued, slow march of rot. I think we're going to start seeing escalating social unrest until something breaks. All we can hope for is that something breaks sooner rather than later, and that we get whatever new deal needs making before things get too bad.

asdff 7y ago
It wasn't too long ago that Los Angeles was burning on national TV, and people had to post on roofs with rifles due to the police refusing to get involved with the situation beyond protecting the wealthiest zip codes. It only stopped when the national guard deployed armored vehicles. People think the U.S. is removed from this sort of thing. It's not. If you push the working class to a breaking point, they will break into stores to steal diapers if they have to.
sjtindell 7y ago
Does anyone else remember Occupy Wall Street here in the US? Millions camping out in parks demanding change and support. But they were unable to rally, organize, create any lasting impact on the elites and wealthier strata of society. The middle and top looked down on the bottom as an annoyance. They were literally removed by riot police, and the movement died. Unsurprisingly, the number of homeless people increased drastically in that same period (financial crisis) and how have many municipalities responded? Laws against sleeping on benches. There was literally a tent city under Las Vegas, but the decision makers in this society are so far removed it just doesn’t matter. Until the bread runs out, we are not in a real “end of the world” crisis as you describe it. Americans are apathetic, just wealthy enough not to starve, have deeply ingrained individualism that makes them resistant to anything resembling support or handouts, and don’t understand what’s happening - that is to say, the rich are getting so rich their families will never be poor again, and the doors to that class are closing. There’s more support now for ideas like a basic income, universal healthcare, etc. but the fundamentals of the system are so ponderously difficult to change...a very interesting situation.
- samstave 7y ago
  Of course! My conspiracy theory is that because the stole 700billion with the bank bailouts and that resulted in OWS, which was quashed pretty quickly - and resulted in no consequences for those that stole that. They have ossued the “stay inside orders” whole the now steal four trillion dollars so there wont be another OWS at scale.
standardUser 7y ago
"Bernie Sanders was, as far as I can see, our last shot at reversing the trend from within the current system" If anything, Bernie Sanders was our first, worst shot at structural economic change. In fact, every candidate on stage during those Democratic debates was running far, far to the economic left of Barack Obama, John Kerry, Al Gore or either Clinton. With some historical perspective, you might see that the tides have turned in favor of the types of changes you are calling for, not against as so many people seem to pretend.
- sudosysgen 7y ago
  In practice, none of them would actually have implemented it, except the only one with a history of going against party and lobby. Barack Obama ran far to the left of Barack Obama, but ended up compromising with Republicans for some absurd reason as he held both the house and senate, to the degree where he passed Mitt Romney's proposal while dragging his feet. None of them except for Bernie Sanders was willing to recognize the system as fundamentally broken. Biden and Clinton and indubitably their Democrat sosies would openly profess to the elite that nothing would change.
  - standardUser 7y ago
    "none of them would actually have implemented it, except the only one with a history of going against party and lobby" Why would the person with few allies and hostile relations with various power players be the one who could "actually" implement anything? Barack Obama had a senate majority that Bernie would have killed for in his hypothetical first term, but Obama still couldn't get his own party to even consider a public option. Things have changed compared to them, but not so much that any 51-seat senate majority could pass anything close to what Bernie calls for. It's beyond unrealistic to pretend otherwise.
    - lleolin 7y ago
      You're saying that even with a Senate majority, Obama couldn't get his own party to consider public option, while also arguing that through candidates that are "far to the left" of Obama (except Bernie Sanders apparently), we can achieve the kind of structural economic change that people who support Bernie Sanders want. Seems a bit contradictory to me.
cactus2093 7y ago
I mostly agree with what you're saying, but disagree about Bernie. Many of his biggest policies are still just trying to cover the rot with a coat of paint. Healthcare too expensive? Just have the government cover the bill. College too expensive? Same thing. Workers not paid enough? Raise the minimum wage. All very blunt, simplistic reactions, that ignore the complexities of the real world. Getting rid of the rot requires looking at the roots of the problems. If something is 10x more expensive today than it was a few decades ago, just agreeing to pay the 10x price is not a good solution. You need to figure out and address the underlying causes. I am still hopeful for our future, maybe foolishly, but I am. If there is a silver lining of Covid-19, maybe it will highlight some of the insane bureaucracy and regulatory capture that are strangling our institutions in the US and lead to improvements. Don't get me wrong, we also need some progressive policies targeted at helping those who are struggling most, but those policies will only be effective if we also recognize and address the underlying cost disease issues. Just look at progressive havens like San Francisco to see how much money can be burned on well-intentioned ideas without achieving any results, if you refuse to acknowledge the underlying causes.
- coldpie 7y ago
  > If something is 10x more expensive today than it was a few decades ago, just agreeing to pay the 10x price is not a good solution. That's not what those proposals were. Single payer healthcare and state-provided education is how you fix those problems.
  - VRay 7y ago
    IMO, 4 year university degrees in the USA in their current state are basically a scam We're promising kids that if they study hard in school they'll be elevated to the middle/upper class by their degree, but in reality most of those degrees are almost completely worthless for building a career. People are graduating with 4 year degrees in business, math, assorted liberal arts, and then they're saddled with 6 figures of debt and not any more appealing to companies than someone with a year of experience in a desk job Another problem: So many people are getting pushed into getting 4 year degrees now that they're now a requirement for many jobs that don't even need them. Sure, a CS degree will help if you're building some Google-scale backend code, but you really don't need one to tinker with a small web storefront's layout bugs

by _bxg1 7y ago

asdff 7y ago

It wasn't too long ago that Los Angeles was burning on national TV, and people had to post on roofs with rifles due to the police refusing to get involved with the situation beyond protecting the wealthiest zip codes. It only stopped when the national guard deployed armored vehicles. People think the U.S. is removed from this sort of thing. It's not. If you push the working class to a breaking point, they will break into stores to steal diapers if they have to.

sjtindell 7y ago

Does anyone else remember Occupy Wall Street here in the US? Millions camping out in parks demanding change and support. But they were unable to rally, organize, create any lasting impact on the elites and wealthier strata of society. The middle and top looked down on the bottom as an annoyance. They were literally removed by riot police, and the movement died. Unsurprisingly, the number of homeless people increased drastically in that same period (financial crisis) and how have many municipalities responded? Laws against sleeping on benches. There was literally a tent city under Las Vegas, but the decision makers in this society are so far removed it just doesn’t matter. Until the bread runs out, we are not in a real “end of the world” crisis as you describe it. Americans are apathetic, just wealthy enough not to starve, have deeply ingrained individualism that makes them resistant to anything resembling support or handouts, and don’t understand what’s happening - that is to say, the rich are getting so rich their families will never be poor again, and the doors to that class are closing. There’s more support now for ideas like a basic income, universal healthcare, etc. but the fundamentals of the system are so ponderously difficult to change...a very interesting situation.

samstave 7y ago
Of course! My conspiracy theory is that because the stole 700billion with the bank bailouts and that resulted in OWS, which was quashed pretty quickly - and resulted in no consequences for those that stole that. They have ossued the “stay inside orders” whole the now steal four trillion dollars so there wont be another OWS at scale.

standardUser 7y ago

"Bernie Sanders was, as far as I can see, our last shot at reversing the trend from within the current system" If anything, Bernie Sanders was our first, worst shot at structural economic change. In fact, every candidate on stage during those Democratic debates was running far, far to the economic left of Barack Obama, John Kerry, Al Gore or either Clinton. With some historical perspective, you might see that the tides have turned in favor of the types of changes you are calling for, not against as so many people seem to pretend.

sudosysgen 7y ago
In practice, none of them would actually have implemented it, except the only one with a history of going against party and lobby. Barack Obama ran far to the left of Barack Obama, but ended up compromising with Republicans for some absurd reason as he held both the house and senate, to the degree where he passed Mitt Romney's proposal while dragging his feet. None of them except for Bernie Sanders was willing to recognize the system as fundamentally broken. Biden and Clinton and indubitably their Democrat sosies would openly profess to the elite that nothing would change.
- standardUser 7y ago
  "none of them would actually have implemented it, except the only one with a history of going against party and lobby" Why would the person with few allies and hostile relations with various power players be the one who could "actually" implement anything? Barack Obama had a senate majority that Bernie would have killed for in his hypothetical first term, but Obama still couldn't get his own party to even consider a public option. Things have changed compared to them, but not so much that any 51-seat senate majority could pass anything close to what Bernie calls for. It's beyond unrealistic to pretend otherwise.
  - lleolin 7y ago
    You're saying that even with a Senate majority, Obama couldn't get his own party to consider public option, while also arguing that through candidates that are "far to the left" of Obama (except Bernie Sanders apparently), we can achieve the kind of structural economic change that people who support Bernie Sanders want. Seems a bit contradictory to me.

cactus2093 7y ago

I mostly agree with what you're saying, but disagree about Bernie. Many of his biggest policies are still just trying to cover the rot with a coat of paint. Healthcare too expensive? Just have the government cover the bill. College too expensive? Same thing. Workers not paid enough? Raise the minimum wage. All very blunt, simplistic reactions, that ignore the complexities of the real world. Getting rid of the rot requires looking at the roots of the problems. If something is 10x more expensive today than it was a few decades ago, just agreeing to pay the 10x price is not a good solution. You need to figure out and address the underlying causes. I am still hopeful for our future, maybe foolishly, but I am. If there is a silver lining of Covid-19, maybe it will highlight some of the insane bureaucracy and regulatory capture that are strangling our institutions in the US and lead to improvements. Don't get me wrong, we also need some progressive policies targeted at helping those who are struggling most, but those policies will only be effective if we also recognize and address the underlying cost disease issues. Just look at progressive havens like San Francisco to see how much money can be burned on well-intentioned ideas without achieving any results, if you refuse to acknowledge the underlying causes.

coldpie 7y ago
> If something is 10x more expensive today than it was a few decades ago, just agreeing to pay the 10x price is not a good solution. That's not what those proposals were. Single payer healthcare and state-provided education is how you fix those problems.
- VRay 7y ago
  IMO, 4 year university degrees in the USA in their current state are basically a scam We're promising kids that if they study hard in school they'll be elevated to the middle/upper class by their degree, but in reality most of those degrees are almost completely worthless for building a career. People are graduating with 4 year degrees in business, math, assorted liberal arts, and then they're saddled with 6 figures of debt and not any more appealing to companies than someone with a year of experience in a desk job Another problem: So many people are getting pushed into getting 4 year degrees now that they're now a requirement for many jobs that don't even need them. Sure, a CS degree will help if you're building some Google-scale backend code, but you really don't need one to tinker with a small web storefront's layout bugs