5 ms·

In Scandinavia we've had some sort of pragmatic market socialism, not much central planning but reasonable redistribution in various ways. Seems to work fairly

In Scandinavia we've had some sort of pragmatic market socialism, not much central planning but reasonable redistribution in various ways. Seems to work fairly well, although large parts of it has been (and is being) dismantled by the liberals (those are the right here, not the left).

cpursley 6y ago
Yeah, but Scandinavians are civilized ;) Seriously though, Scandinavia is proof that you can have a free market and social programs at the same time and have it work well. It's when bureaucrats get their fingers into planning the economy when things end up very poorly.
hunter2_ 6y ago
Wait, are you saying that the terms "right/left" are used opposite compared to the US (meaning that the Scandinavian right prefers socialism), or that the term "liberal" is used opposite compared to the US (meaning that Scandinavian liberals oppose socialism)?
- ModernMech 6y ago
  liberals everywhere oppose socialism. From wiki: "Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on liberty, consent of the governed and equality before the law.[1][2][3] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but they generally support free markets, free trade, limited government, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), capitalism, democracy, secularism, gender equality, racial equality, internationalism, freedom of speech, freedom of the press and freedom of religion." In the US, the overton window is so far right that liberals are considered left of moderates. But liberals are not leftists, i.e. people who would support socialism. It's like left --------------------- liberals --- moderates ---- right ^Scandinavian moderate
- mdemare 6y ago
  Liberals and Christian Democrats are center-right, Social-Democrats and Greens center-left. Those are the main power blocks in quite a few European countries. And US liberals and European liberals have quite different ideas about taxes, immigration, climate change, law and order. Europeans would not call Biden or Warren liberals. (Who would Europeans call a liberal? Maybe Paul Ryan, or Bloomberg).
- mzg 6y ago
  Meaning that the "center" of Scandinavian politics is to the left of liberalism. Left != liberal.
- cgh 6y ago
  The word "liberal" in the US is used in a way unlike anywhere else. Classic liberalism, as the term is used everywhere else, is embodied by publications like eg The Economist.
lm28469 6y ago
I'm starting to think that Americans truly don't understand what European mean by "socialism". All they can picture in their mind is Stalin and eating potatoes while living in tiny sad looking houses. Socialism brought us weekends, shorter workweek, vacation days, sick days, retirement pensions, parental leaves &c. but the US is still far being any European country on these topics. like, you get all of that if you are employed by a big corp, and even then it's far from the default in France or Germany for example. This isn't about the state controlling everything, it is about actually making money trickle down from the richer layers to ensure you can have children, educate them, have access to health, have vacations even if you don't work for a big corp, can recover after an injury or disease whitout having the fear of being kicked out of your house, retire even if you haven't saved a cent in your life (besides your mandatory payments), &c. Just read this: US: "12 weeks of unpaid leave annually for mothers of newborn or newly adopted children if they work for a company with 50 or more employees .... For the majority of US workers at companies with fewer than 50 employees, there is no legal right to paid or unpaid leave" DE:Not allowed to work 6 weeks before to 8 weeks after, unpaid leaves up to 3 years, state allowance of 300 to 1800 euros a months for up to 12 months depending on how much you earned before. And you can even work up to 30 hours a week and still get the allowance
_-david-_ 6y ago
To call it socialism is incorrect. Carl Bildt (former Prime Minister of Sweeden) said "Bernie Sanders was lucky to be able to get to the Soviet Union in 1988 and praise all its stunning socialist achievements before the entire system and empire collapsed under the weight of its own spectacular failures." [0] Lars Løkke Rasmussen (former Prime Minister of Denmark) said "I know that some people in the US associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism. Therefore I would like to make one thing clear. Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy" [1] Seems like they both reject the idea of them being socialist countries. They are both non-socialist countries that have market economies. They just happen to have a larger welfare state than a lot of countries. Having a large welfare state has nothing to do with socialism though. [0] https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1100039769810235393 https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1100039769810235393 [1] https://www.thelocal.dk/20151101/danish-pm-in-us-denmark-is-not-socialist https://www.thelocal.dk/20151101/danish-pm-in-us-denmark-is-...
- cpursley 6y ago
  Exactly! You can have a competitive market economy (i.e., not central planning) with a functioning social welfare system.
- Tistron 6y ago
  Yes, both Carl Bildt and Lars Løkke are liberals and part of dismantling/developing our system into less socialist or "social" if you prefer. We certainly don't have central planning, and if that was inherent in the word socialism I guess Lars Løkke wouldn't have had to say "far from a socialist planned economy". It is far from that. It is also, as I see it, increasingly far from a social(ist) system, but we did use to have more of that, and in my opinion (not alone here) it was better. I am fairly well educated and have had a good salary when I was working (voluntarily not working right now because I have lots of money and prefer to do other things), but like many others around here I prefer that my money gets spent having a functional society to having more pocket money to buy luxury items. And I know that from a Liberal/libertarian pov I don't have the right to decide that for others, but from my point of view that kind of exaggerated individualism is dysfunctional and individuals don't exist any more or less than groups. We need both rights and pragmatic optimisation of general wellbeing. Everybody is better off when there is less poverty and misery around.

cpursley 6y ago

Yeah, but Scandinavians are civilized ;) Seriously though, Scandinavia is proof that you can have a free market and social programs at the same time and have it work well. It's when bureaucrats get their fingers into planning the economy when things end up very poorly.

hunter2_ 6y ago

Wait, are you saying that the terms "right/left" are used opposite compared to the US (meaning that the Scandinavian right prefers socialism), or that the term "liberal" is used opposite compared to the US (meaning that Scandinavian liberals oppose socialism)?

ModernMech 6y ago
liberals everywhere oppose socialism. From wiki: "Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on liberty, consent of the governed and equality before the law.[1][2][3] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but they generally support free markets, free trade, limited government, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), capitalism, democracy, secularism, gender equality, racial equality, internationalism, freedom of speech, freedom of the press and freedom of religion." In the US, the overton window is so far right that liberals are considered left of moderates. But liberals are not leftists, i.e. people who would support socialism. It's like left --------------------- liberals --- moderates ---- right ^Scandinavian moderate
mdemare 6y ago
Liberals and Christian Democrats are center-right, Social-Democrats and Greens center-left. Those are the main power blocks in quite a few European countries. And US liberals and European liberals have quite different ideas about taxes, immigration, climate change, law and order. Europeans would not call Biden or Warren liberals. (Who would Europeans call a liberal? Maybe Paul Ryan, or Bloomberg).
mzg 6y ago
Meaning that the "center" of Scandinavian politics is to the left of liberalism. Left != liberal.
cgh 6y ago
The word "liberal" in the US is used in a way unlike anywhere else. Classic liberalism, as the term is used everywhere else, is embodied by publications like eg The Economist.

lm28469 6y ago

I'm starting to think that Americans truly don't understand what European mean by "socialism". All they can picture in their mind is Stalin and eating potatoes while living in tiny sad looking houses. Socialism brought us weekends, shorter workweek, vacation days, sick days, retirement pensions, parental leaves &c. but the US is still far being any European country on these topics. like, you get all of that if you are employed by a big corp, and even then it's far from the default in France or Germany for example. This isn't about the state controlling everything, it is about actually making money trickle down from the richer layers to ensure you can have children, educate them, have access to health, have vacations even if you don't work for a big corp, can recover after an injury or disease whitout having the fear of being kicked out of your house, retire even if you haven't saved a cent in your life (besides your mandatory payments), &c. Just read this: US: "12 weeks of unpaid leave annually for mothers of newborn or newly adopted children if they work for a company with 50 or more employees .... For the majority of US workers at companies with fewer than 50 employees, there is no legal right to paid or unpaid leave" DE:Not allowed to work 6 weeks before to 8 weeks after, unpaid leaves up to 3 years, state allowance of 300 to 1800 euros a months for up to 12 months depending on how much you earned before. And you can even work up to 30 hours a week and still get the allowance

_-david-_ 6y ago

To call it socialism is incorrect. Carl Bildt (former Prime Minister of Sweeden) said "Bernie Sanders was lucky to be able to get to the Soviet Union in 1988 and praise all its stunning socialist achievements before the entire system and empire collapsed under the weight of its own spectacular failures." [0] Lars Løkke Rasmussen (former Prime Minister of Denmark) said "I know that some people in the US associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism. Therefore I would like to make one thing clear. Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy" [1] Seems like they both reject the idea of them being socialist countries. They are both non-socialist countries that have market economies. They just happen to have a larger welfare state than a lot of countries. Having a large welfare state has nothing to do with socialism though. [0] https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1100039769810235393 https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1100039769810235393 [1] https://www.thelocal.dk/20151101/danish-pm-in-us-denmark-is-not-socialist https://www.thelocal.dk/20151101/danish-pm-in-us-denmark-is-...

cpursley 6y ago
Exactly! You can have a competitive market economy (i.e., not central planning) with a functioning social welfare system.
Tistron 6y ago
Yes, both Carl Bildt and Lars Løkke are liberals and part of dismantling/developing our system into less socialist or "social" if you prefer. We certainly don't have central planning, and if that was inherent in the word socialism I guess Lars Løkke wouldn't have had to say "far from a socialist planned economy". It is far from that. It is also, as I see it, increasingly far from a social(ist) system, but we did use to have more of that, and in my opinion (not alone here) it was better. I am fairly well educated and have had a good salary when I was working (voluntarily not working right now because I have lots of money and prefer to do other things), but like many others around here I prefer that my money gets spent having a functional society to having more pocket money to buy luxury items. And I know that from a Liberal/libertarian pov I don't have the right to decide that for others, but from my point of view that kind of exaggerated individualism is dysfunctional and individuals don't exist any more or less than groups. We need both rights and pragmatic optimisation of general wellbeing. Everybody is better off when there is less poverty and misery around.